Category: strange fire

Posted in bible, continuationism, discernment, strange fire

Strange Fire Q&A: Why have some gifts ceased and others continue? Are we picking and choosing?

Posted on by elizabethprata

One hundred years ago, the modern Pentecostal movement was born. By October 2013 the Pentecostal movement has morphed into the Charismatic movement with its particular brand of false doctrine and had infected much of western Christianity and polluted quite a bit of Christianity abroad. The excesses of the movement include faith healing, reports of raising the dead, babbling tongues, alleged prophecies and direct revelation, disorderly church services and worse. The movement assaulted the sufficiency of scripture, the inerrancy of scripture, besmirched the name of Jesus Christ and damaged the faith of many.

John MacArthur and his team at Grace To You took a stand against this movement and sought to bring clarity to why its doctrines needed comparison to the Bible correction. To that end, they organized the Strange Fire Conference, held in the fall of 2013. One of the main purposes of the conference was to initiate a substantive discussion about these issues. It achieved its purpose. Every sermon preached at the conference rebuked the movement simply by preaching the truth, and brought correct biblical doctrine to the fore. Given the outcry, it seems that the effect was immediate.

There were many good questions asked at the various seminars and Q & A sessions held during the conference period, but not all of them could be immediately answered. After the conference concluded, ministers and theologians at Grace Community Church and The Master’s Seminary wrote out answers to these unanswered questions, compiled them, and put them on one web page.

The page is a treasure trove of good, solid rebuttals to and practical helps about what to do if encountering Charismatic doctrines in your church, in your family, or in yourself.

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Why are the teaching gifts and others in the list of gifts in effect today if the others ceased? Do we pick and choose?

As in all matters of life and doctrine, we must follow carefully the teaching of Scripture. We must be careful to interpret the text and to apply its direct teachings and its principles to every area of life. God has indicated clearly in His Word that some spiritual gifts were given for the duration of the church’s time on earth and some were intended for use only during the establishment of the church. We don’t have the authority to decide which gifts belong in those categories, nor do we desire to make that decision. Our only desire is to follow what God has revealed to us in Scripture.

The miraculous sign gifts accompanied the apostles and validated them as true spokesmen for Christ (2 Corinthians 12:12; Hebrews 2:3–4). The ministry of the apostles and New Testament prophets was to lay a doctrinal foundation for the church (Ephesians 2:20). They laid the foundation on which the evangelists, pastors, and teachers can build (Ephesians 4:11–13). Evangelists anchor new people into the foundation, and pastors and teachers strengthen and grow them from the foundation.

After the apostles died and the canon of Scripture was completed, the church has carried on through the equipping ministry of evangelists, pastors, and teachers. And now every Christian has the ability to discern truth from error by studying the written Word of God.
For a careful explanation of which gifts have ceased and how we know they were intended by God as temporary gifts, I refer you to Tom Pennington’s excellent teaching in “A Case for Cessationism.” Explore our sermon archive for more detailed exposition on the key passages related to the temporary spiritual gifts, such as 1 Corinthians 13:8–13, 2 Corinthians 12:12, Ephesians 2:20–21, and Hebrews 2:2–4.

 

Posted in beth moore, charismatic, strange fire

Strange Fire Q&A: Beth Moore

Posted on by elizabethprata

One hundred years ago, the modern Pentecostal movement was born. By October 2013 the Pentecostal movement has morphed into the Charismatic movement with its particular brand of false doctrine and had infected much of western Christianity and polluted quite a bit of Christianity abroad. The excesses of the movement include faith healing, reports of raising the dead, babbling tongues, alleged prophecies and direct revelation, disorderly church services and worse. The movement assaulted the sufficiency of scripture, the inerrancy of scripture, besmirched the name of Jesus Christ and damaged the faith of many.

John MacArthur and his team at Grace To You took a stand against this movement and sought to bring clarity to why its doctrines needed comparison to the Bible correction. To that end, they organized the Strange Fire Conference, held in the fall of 2013. One of the main purposes of the conference was to initiate a substantive discussion about these issues. It achieved its purpose. Every sermon preached at the conference rebuked the movement simply by preaching the truth, and brought correct biblical doctrine to the fore. Given the outcry, it seems that the effect was immediate.

There were many good questions asked at the various seminars and Q & A sessions held during the conference period, but not all of them could be immediately answered. After the conference concluded, ministers and theologians at Grace Community Church and The Master’s Seminary wrote out answers to these unanswered questions, compiled them, and put them on one web page.

The page is a treasure trove of good, solid rebuttals to and practical helps about what to do if encountering Charismatic doctrines in your church, in your family, or in yourself.

Here is just one of the Q&A’s from the Strange Fire web page.

FYI, before you read the Q, in my own opinion, Moore passed the “heretical” mark in June 2013. Moore had said she had been lifted into another dimension by “Jesus” to see the global church as He sees it (!), to return and “tell”, (!!) and that the global church had apparently included the Catholic Church as a Christian denomination. This puts her on the far side of heretical, because Jesus would never do any of those three things, make a personal visit to earth, (Mt 23:39, Acts 1:11); give new extra-biblical revelation to be delivered as if Moore was a Prophet, (Rev 22:18-19); and include a false religion in His message. Nonetheless, here is the SF question from gty.org:

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Can you talk about the dangers of popular teachers who are not heretical but say that God talks to them? I am thinking specifically of Beth Moore.What are we to do with people who refuse to see the danger and insist such teachers are OK

Believers must always listen carefully when any teacher or preacher speaks about the Bible and theology.They must share the nobility of the Berean saints whom Luke commended for double checking Paul’s teaching according to Scripture (cf. Acts 17:1–11).While Beth Moore teaches with accuracy on some points, she also holds positions and teaches doctrines that are both incorrect and dangerous.  

Beth Moore promotes contemplative prayer, a mystical practice not found in Scripture which includes elements of eastern mysticism.  She chooses not to draw firm doctrinal lines on her website while implying the Roman Catholic Church is a Christian denomination alongside the Methodist, Baptist, and other denominations.  Beth also claims that she has received visions from God and sometimes receives revelation from Him in her heart.  From these examples we must conclude that the lack of biblical and theological depth in Beth Moore’s teaching renders her a dubious and dangerous source of Bible teaching.You may read a critique of Beth Moore’s teaching here.

Posted in charismatic, discernment, strange fire

Strange Fire Q & A: How do we distinguish between the Spirit prompting us, and our own thoughts?

Posted on by elizabethprata
One hundred years ago, the modern Pentecostal movement was born. By October 2013 the Pentecostal movement has morphed into the Charismatic movement with its particular brand of false doctrine and had infected much of western Christianity and polluted quite a bit of Christianity abroad. The excesses of the movement include faith healing, reports of raising the dead, babbling tongues, alleged prophecies and direct revelation, disorderly church services and worse. The movement assaulted the sufficiency of scripture, the inerrancy of scripture, besmirched the name of Jesus Christ and damaged the faith of many. 

John MacArthur and his team at Grace To You took a stand against this movement and sought to bring clarity to why its doctrines needed comparison to the Bible correction. To that end, they organized the Strange Fire Conference, held in the fall of 2013. One of the main purposes of the conference was to initiate a substantive discussion about these issues. It achieved its purpose. Every sermon preached at the conference rebuked the movement simply by preaching the truth, and brought correct biblical doctrine to the fore. Given the outcry, it seems that the effect was immediate.

There were many good questions asked at the various seminars and Q & A sessions held during the conference period, but not all of them could be immediately answered. After the conference concluded, ministers and theologians at Grace Community Church and The Master’s Seminary wrote out answers to these unanswered questions, compiled them, and put them on one web page.

The page is a treasure trove of good, solid rebuttals to and practical helps about what to do if encountering Charismatic doctrines in your church, in your family, or in yourself.

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Epidemic in the Charismatic movement is the acceptance of personal revelations. Everybody and their brother it seemed is hearing from Jesus and were eager to share “a word from the Lord”. Such practices assault the sufficiency of scripture, of course, and must be corrected. However, one book is doing its level best to continue to attack the sufficiency of God’s word-  Jesus Calling. Jesus Calling was published in 2004, 16 years ago now, but is still on the bestseller lists. Friends, Jesus is not calling. he has spoken and His word is contained in the closed canon of scripture. The book has spawned a cottage industry of studies, devotionals, children’s books, and other material that has never stopped polluting the faith. Indeed, it seems to be increasing in its staying power and corrupt work.

Here is just one of the Questions and Answers in the Strange Fire Q&A page.

Q. How do we distinguish between the legitimate prompting of the Holy Spirit and our own thoughts or will?
A. While God can prompt us to think or do something, He has not given a clear and objective mechanism to identify when He is doing that. Since no one can identify with absolute certainty the source of the impressions he experiences, he must not ascribe authority to them or rely upon them as direction from God. John MacArthur gives good advice on that point in this downloadable audio. Mistaking a personal impression for divine guidance can lead us far astray from God’s will and may cause serious problems in our lives. 

How should a Christian respond to what he thinks might be a leading of the Holy Spirit? By comparing the impression with the objective, authoritative revelation God gave us—the Scripture. So, does the thought you are having agree with biblical theology? Is the action condemned or condoned in God’s Word? Will that choice ultimately bring glory to God? As you answer these questions in light of biblical teaching, you can know whether you are walking in the will of God.

I would also encourage you to listen to John’s two messages on the topic of understanding God’s will for your life. You can listen to the messages here.

Posted in charismatic, discernment, doctrine, strange fire

Strange Fire Q&A: How does God use false teachers and their heresies?

Posted on by elizabethprata

One hundred years ago, the modern Pentecostal movement was born. By October 2013 the Pentecostal movement has morphed into the Charismatic movement with its particular brand of false doctrine and had infected much of western Christianity and polluted quite a bit of Christianity abroad. The excesses of the movement include faith healing, reports of raising the dead, babbling tongues, alleged prophecies and direct revelation, disorderly church services and worse. The movement assaulted the sufficiency of scripture, the inerrancy of scripture, besmirched the name of Jesus Christ and damaged the faith of many.

John MacArthur and his team at Grace To You took a stand against this movement and sought to bring clarity to why its doctrines needed comparison to the Bible correction. To that end, they organized the Strange Fire Conference, held in the fall of 2013. One of the main purposes of the conference was to initiate a substantive discussion about these issues. It achieved its purpose. Every sermon preached at the conference rebuked the movement simply by preaching the truth, and brought correct biblical doctrine to the fore. Given the outcry, it seems that the effect was immediate.

There were many good questions asked at the various seminars and Q & A sessions held during the conference period, but not all of them could be immediately answered. After the conference concluded, ministers and theologians at Grace Community Church and The Master’s Seminary wrote out answers to these unanswered questions, compiled them, and put them on one web page.

The page is a treasure trove of good, solid rebuttals to and practical helps about what to do if encountering Charismatic doctrines in your church, in your family, or in yourself. Here is just one of the Questions and Answers in the Strange Fire Q&A page.

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Does God allow false teaching to continue so believers can distinguish between true and false doctrine? 

Paul told the Corinthian church, “There must be heresies among you so that those who are approved might be made manifest’ (1 Corinthians 11:19). Would you please comment on this verse in light of the charismatic movement? Does God allow these false movements, in part, so the distinction is made clear to His people? Thanks. 

The Greek word translated as “heresies” in the King James Version is hairesis. While that word can refer to false teaching or heresy in certain contexts, Paul’s intended meaning when using the word in 1 Corinthians 11:19 is clearly the other possible meaning of “division, faction, separate group.” In this paragraph Paul is confronting the Corinthian believers’ selfishness and sectarianism (see vv. 18, 21–22, 33). The text of the New King James Version clarifies the meaning by updating the translation from “heresies” (KJV) to “factions” (NKJV). Paul says that when those inevitable divisions happen, they serve the good purpose of distinguishing between the sinful and the righteous people in the church.  

Having said that, the situation Paul describes regarding disunity in the Corinthian church is similar to the result of the error being taught within the charismatic movement today. The doctrines they tolerate and often perpetuate distort, pervert, and contradict sound, biblical teaching. The truly saved who revere and carefully study God’s Word can see the difference between false charismatic teaching and sound theology. While we would never condone false doctrine and practices, we do rest in our confidence that God uses even the wickedness of man for His good purposes (cf. Genesis 50:20; Acts 2:23; Romans 8:28)

Posted in charismatic, discernment, grace community church, intruder, strange fire

John MacArthur confronted by intruder mounting the stage during Sunday Service

Posted on by elizabethprata

On Sunday, August 16, an intruder wearing a backpack mounted the pulpit at John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church while Dr MacArthur was preaching the Sunday morning service, put his fingers in his lips and emitted a piercing whistle, pointed his finger at the pastor and began shouting that he had a message from the Lord to deliver to him.

The man, a Scottish “evangelist,” was angry that Dr MacArthur had preached in the past that the charismatic gifts have ceased, an interpretation termed “cessationism.” This biblical teaching was most recently delivered at the Strange Fire conference at Grace Community Church two years ago. That conference was a much-needed response and rebuke to the Charismatic movement which claims that Jesus delivers personal revelation to individuals today in the form of the temporary sign gifts of prophecy, tongues, interpretation of tongues, and also that people can and do perform miracles like raising people from the dead and healings, as the first century apostles performed.

Charismatics believe these temporary gifts intended as a temporary sign were not temporary at all and have never ceased. They believe the gifts continue. They are continuationists. Continuationism and its heresies and false notions of Christianity are rapidly overtaking the faith all around the world. If you have ever seen a “church service” where people are shouting, jerking, fainting or otherwise gyrating, this is a Charismatic church. If you have ever seen people lined up for healing by “an anointed preacher” at a healing crusade, this is charismania. If you ever have seen claims from ‘pastors’ who shout for the Holy Spirit “to show up” and He supposedly does by showering the congregation with gold dust from the ceiling, you’ve seen a charismatic congregation.

Not all Charismatic churches are so wild, but the ones that seem quieter are just as dangerous. They speak in tongues which are gibberish. They claim that the canon of scripture is not closed and have a word delivered by the Lord to share. Beth Moore makes claims all the time that Jesus speaks to her and commands her to teach what He tells her. Disgraced pastor Mark Driscoll claimed to have had many visions and audible revelations from God. So you see it is not just the Benny Hinns and Kenneth Copelands of the world engaged in dangerous twisting of God’s word in regard to the temporary sign gifts, but even conservative segments of the faith have now accepted personal revelation and mystical practices associated with Charismania.

The Strange Fire conference of 2013 sparked angry outbursts and heated reactions from certain segments, mainly from the people who claim to possess these gifts and are going around performing them. Apparently this intruder was one who feels he is a prophet from God, as he said while on the podium at GCC last Sunday. The reaction to the Strange Fire conference is continuing and satan is still inspiring people to anger over the biblical rebuke the preachers and teachers at that conference delivered. The warfare is real and ongoing. (Ephesians 6:12)

Here is video of the intruder at Grace Community Church. You can see he mounted the pulpit rapidly and got within 20 feet of MacArthur before anyone noticed or stopped him. Even though two men in the front row immediately rose and approached the intruder, I was shocked at how fast it happened. When the intruder points his finger at the esteemed pastor, it could as easily have been a gun. GCC fellow pastor Phil Johnson said the intruder got “way too close” to MacArthur.

Here is a video of Dr MacArthur’s gracious reaction afterward. It is a 3-minute video from SO4J, but it’s “exclusive” to SO4J.com so I can’t embed.

VIDEO OF MACARTHUR’S RESPONSE: JOHN MACARTHUR IS VERBALLY ATTACKED BY A FALSE PROPHET

This brings to mind safety concerns, of course. The congregants at Charleston’s Emmanuel African Methodist Church last June certainly didn’t expect to be shot while praying and singing inside the church, but that shooting shocked America and the world. Nine people were killed.

Even though Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Church is not a church and Osteen is not a pastor, many people think it’s a church, and some had no compunction about mounting an orchestrated rebellion while services were going on this past June. These hecklers were outraged at Osteen’s brazen falsity and began calling him a liar as Osteen prepared to ‘preach’. There were six individuals ushered out from the Lakewood arena by security that day.

Unfortunately we are seeing these scenes of bouncers or security men ushering away some intruders more and more often. Here is GCC Pastor Phil Johnson with comments on the incident:

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PHIL JOHNSON:

Here are some comments about church security and the performance of the GCC security team in particular. These are compiled mainly from my own replies in a couple of recent comment threads. The one comment below that I have put in quotation marks was made by one of my FaceBook friends. All the other comments from which I compiled this are mine:
__________

I agree that it’s both irritating and scary to see someone with mischief on his mind get that close to John MacArthur, but we are not going to erect a barrier between the pastor and the people in our church. I imagine the security team will henceforth put their most young and spry guys on the front row. But it’s a simple fact of life that if someone bent on doing harm is determined enough, it’s not possible to guarantee that every possible threat can be thwarted. On the other hand, all of us who preach Christ at GCC are willing to die for Him–but not willing to permit miscreants to force a barrier between the people and the elders. John MacArthur isn’t going to move around among his own congregation in a plexiglas bubble like the Popemobile.

I know for a fact that the security team is carefully examining Sunday morning’s incident with an eye to improving or beefing up the measures they take. But they DID handle this situation without injury to anyone involved, and the entire interruption lasted less than sixty seconds.

Bear in mind that over the years, the vast majority of criticisms aimed at our security team have come from people who seem to think ANYTHING they do is too hasty, too heavy-handed, or otherwise unChristlike. In fact, Martha Mac’s front-row video of Sunday’s incident (posted on her FB page) drew dozens of comments from charismatic critics and postmodern bleeding hearts who complained that the treatment our Scottish “prophet” friend received was overly harsh. So people should appreciate and have some empathy for the difficult position the security staff are in.

Finally, here’s a comment someone else posted elsewhere regarding security’s handling of this incident:
__________

“As a former LEO and member of my church’s security team, who knows a few of the GCC security team members, well done fellas. I agree with Phil that it was a measured and gentle approach, and they took care of business without incident. Praise the Lord! It will be good for them to do a review this incident to see how a response could be improved or tweaked next time, but there will always be lag time in any response, and there is always the risk that someone can get to your pastor first. Also, there is a delicate balance between what is the desired level of response by security, both from the pastor’s perspective and the congregation’s perspective. Go too hard, and there is criticism; go too soft, and likewise. John and his security team have an understanding on what is expected of them in their response, of this I am sure, and this appears to have played out. If you notice, John points at the disorderly subject, and the men react immediately and start to approach the stage. The subject stops away from John, and is merely pointing and yelling, with no visible weapon, which calls for a less dynamic response from the security team. Professional job, gentlemen. In under a minute, the situation is resolved, and it’s back to business as usual. Thank you for posting this, Phil, as a good reminder to those who protect our faithful pastors each and every week.”
_________

In short, I think people who don’t actually have hands-on responsibility for church security at this level should probably keep their Monday-morning quarterbacking to themselves.

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We are not guaranteed safety in this world. Though we believe church should be a safe place, and we strive to make it so, it is actually ground zero in the warfare in which we engage. Sometimes that warfare shows up in the form of an angry person…sometimes the angry person has a gun. We are not guaranteed safe passage from this world to the next, what we are guaranteed is trouble.

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33)

strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said. (Acts 14:22)

Ultimately the take-away is… PRAY FOR PASTORS. The pastors who unflinchingly preach the truth of God are most at risk. Pray for them for God to keep them spiritually safe, and physically safe. And He will. Until it is the day ordained from the foundation of the world for them to be called home.

Posted in cessationist, continuationist, john piper, strange fire

John MacArthur and John Piper: lessons from a disagreement over doctrine

Posted on by elizabethprata
EPrata photo

The reverberations from the Strange Fire conference held in southern California at John MacArthur’s church last October go on. The conference was to illustrate the need for a rebuke against the Charismatic movement, which allows for unbiblical practices and so many excesses that the sufficiency of the bible was unknown to millions of people who hold to the ideas within the movement.

As a result, the Strange Fire conference forced the issue. Too many people had either been silent or on the fence as to whether they believe the miracle gifts (tongues, interpretation of tongues, healing and prophecy) are continuing since the first century, or had ceased. (Contnuationist v. Cessationist).

Pastor John Piper is one of those. He believes the miracle gifts continue, and is cautiously open to them as occurring today by the Spirit using men as the vehicle for their manifestation. (Most people believe that God directly performs any and all miracles at any time for His good pleasure and purposes).. Piper is known as a ‘cautious continuationist.’ So is Wayne Grudem, who believes that prophecy is and can be uttered today as a direct revelation from men, but that it can be fallible.

The Strange Fire conference had several goals. One was to present the biblical truth that the miracle spiritual gifts have ceased (healings/miracles, prophecy, tongues, interpretation of tongues.). To this end, the Pastors and speakers at the conference carefully exegeted the passages relevant to the issue and clearly showed that this is so. In addition, the men said that in MOST cases, people who followed these teachings and people who taught these teachings were not saved or that their salvation was in serious doubt. It’s Charismatic Chaos out there as a result, and it has to stop.

The other goal of the conference was to call to account two camps:

–the camp of silent elders of the faith who refuse to condemn the Charismatic Movement and its unbiblical practices, and,

–to address the camp of elders who are trying to stay in the middle, i.e. John Piper.

John MacArthur and the others were firm that opening to the door to the modern day gifts mentioned above was a devastating attack on the sufficiency of scripture. Either the canon is closed and God has ceased speaking new revelation, or He has not. There is no middle ground. Even opening the door a crack in believing there can be new revelation lets in the eventual flood, and that is where we are today.

At one Q&A during Strange Fire, MacArthur was directly asked a pertinent question: “What about Piper?” Piper is on record as seeking the gift of tongues, and of being open to the notion that visions and direct revelation are happening today. He is a continuationist. MacArthur answered that it was a tough question. That Piper no doubt is a brother, and that though Piper personally sought the gifts but doesn’t teach them, he doesn’t promote them nor the unbiblical practices that go with them. MacArthur said “Piper is an anomaly.”

As a rabbit trail to the point I’m making, this brings up an interesting question I’ve been mulling for some time.

–Piper is a continuationist.
–Voddie Baucham is an amillenialist and preaches Revelation as symbol and allegory, not literal
–Martyn Lloyd Jones became a Charismatic-Lite at the end of his life
–John Stott became an annihilationist at the end of his life
–RC Sproul is a post-tribulationist

HOW can such men, all of whom can clearly be seen as brothers of the faith, err on such clearly defined biblical orthodoxy? What does it mean? How can this be? It is completely perplexing.

I contend that in Piper’s case, given his unbiblical stance on continuationism, it opens the door for other less
orthodox things, which Piper has in fact been exhibiting, i.e the Mark Driscoll debacle, the Lectio Divina debacle, and more. But this is a side note. Back to the point:

Piper heard of MacArthur’s comment about Piper’s anomalous stance on the miracle gifts, and responded in writing on his website.

However, in Piper’s response, there were assumptions and misinterpretations Piper made in the piece, not having heard MacArthur directly via the mediacast now available. So MacArthur addressed the issue, both Piper’s continuationism, and Piper’s misinterpretation of MacArthur’s comments, on a 4-part blog essay in much further depth. Here they are-

Piper reaction #4

MacArthur speaks eloquently about the church and protecting the purity of her doctrines, and of keeping boundary lines set for who belongs in it and who don’t belong in it. He is very biblical on church discipline in his personal dealings at Grace Community Church, and very firm on the issue in general across denominations especially concerning doctrine. Phil Johnson said in this essay for MacArthur said a few years ago about “Unity Across Denomination Lines“

“The limits on this trans-denominational unity are set by Scripture itself. We cannot welcome into our circle of fellowship people who deny truths that are essential to the gospel (2 John 7-11); and we cannot embrace people who affirm a gospel Scripture condemns (Gal. 1:18-19). The gospel and all truths essential to it are therefore nonnegotiable points of doctrine, and unity on these matters is a prerequisite to any other kind of unity.”

The issue of whether the miracle spiritual gifts were ceased or continuing has become a global phenomenon and a divisive issue which was confusing the sheep and undermining the sufficiency of scripture on such a widespread basis that MacArthur called it a ‘flood’. There are no boundary lines anymore and suddenly, everything is acceptable.

EPrata photo

MacArthur said that his primary concern with the Charismatic movement is that though it claims to be a movement of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit does His work through the Word, not through miracles.

“He does His work through the scriptures. What that mean is, through a true interpretation of the scriptures. The meaning of the scripture IS the divine revelation. If you don’t get the meaning right, you don’t have the powerful revelation. So, how can you have a ‘move of the Holy Spirit,’ and have a wrong understanding of scripture?” (source)

That gap is exactly where John Piper falls. He has not only been silent about the ridiculous Charismatic excesses in our denomination and within conservative circles, but has perpetuated confusion by seeking tongues and claiming we hear from God via the Roman Catholic practice of Lectio Divina. And the issue is such that when our elders have such drastically wrong interpretations of scripture (Piper on tongues, Grudem on fallible modern prophecy) it causes division and confusion for those who are younger, weak or stumbling. That was the question the man at the Strange Fire Q&A was asking. “What about Piper?”

The friendship between these two elders of our faith, MacArthur and Piper, is just as strong as ever. Both men will appear at the Together 4 The Gospel conference in Louisville KY next week. MacArthur considers Piper a brother and Piper is grateful for MacArthur. In this way, though doctrine is important to contend for, the exhibition of patience and grace between the two men as they have this very public discussion is a worthy one to follow and its pattern to adopt.

Ultimately, doctrine matters. You know, the Gospel is doctrine. The Word must be interpreted rightly, and defended strongly because it is our fence around the boundary of the church. That’s why these things are so important to talk about.

EPrata photo

Posted in cessationist, continuationist, holy spirit, miracles, strange fire, tongues

Does it "limit God" to say the miracle gifts have ceased?

Posted on by elizabethprata

This blog post is an answer regarding a common objection continuationists make, and that is, to say that the Spirit is no longer distributing miracle sign gifts (tongues, miracles and prophecy) that this ‘puts a limit on God.’

Pentecost, Giotto, 1310

This is a very important topic. 1 Corinthians 12:10 speaks of four (temporary) signed gifts; miracles, prophecies, languages, and the interpretation of languages. A continuationist is a person who believes these miracle sign gifts have always continued since Pentecost. A cessationist (like me) says they ceased before the New Testament was even finished being written, that they were never meant to be permanent.

Formerly, this ‘continuing-or-ceased’ issue was seen as a secondary issue, or a non-essential to the faith. It was one of those ‘let’s agree to disagree’ things, and everyone went on their way. However, the fastest growing faith sector in the world is Holiness/Pentecostal/Charismatic believers who hold to the notion that men still perform miracles, speak in babbling tongues, and can receive prophecy directly from God which is separate revelatory knowledge distinct from the bible.

The Strange Fire conference showed me two startling things: that the fastest growing religion is not Islam, it is charismania. There are a billion people in the world who believe, in effect, the bible is not the final word of God. This has diluted the word of God and the works of God  -as He has revealed them- from something final, absolute, and with integrity, to something that is secondary to the latest word one has received this day. This has opened the door to everything from merely wayward thinking, to people making a shipwreck of the faith, to the purely demonic. Therefore with this many people at risk, it is no longer a secondary issue.

Every cessationist, like me, and every continuationist knows, that God is infinitely powerful, and can do anything. He has no limit, at anytime. However, there are two things to consider here. First, God does not intervene in a visible, global, or dramatic supernatural way very often. Even in the bible days, seas parting, fire coming down, and resurrections etc. were not common. 

Secondly, God already limits Himself TO US in at least one important way: His revelation of Himself . 1 Corinthians 13:12 says that we know in part now but later we will fully know. He has chosen to limit His infinite revelation to us for now, through creation (Romans 1:19-20) and the bible (Revelation 22:18-19; Hebrews 1:1). It is not germane to any discussion to allow the talk of  “that puts a limit on God” to become part of the discussion. We are talking the miracle Spiritual gifts here, and those gifts were given to humans to employ. THAT is what we are talking about. Humans working the gifts, not God working supernaturally.

Lazarus, come forth, Salvador Dali, 1964

So the Word is where we look for a basis for any discussion about whether miracle gifts continue, or not.

And what the bible says, is that the sign gifts (tongues, miracles and prophecies) were given to men by the Spirit to authenticate Jesus’s message. (2 Corinthians 12:12, Hebrews 2:3). The bible even shows that tongues were not meant for the church, but for those who didn’t believe, a fulfillment of an OT prophecy. (1 Corinthians 14:22; Isaiah 28:11-12.) Now that the message is complete, the Spirit is no longer giving those particular sign gifts to men. Though we all agree God could perform them if He wants, and Revelation is full of examples of how He will do exactly that, in the Tribulation.

The difference is, the Spirit does not give miracle working ability to men like He did before the canon was complete. Today, there are no apostles bringing His message, it’s all of us bringing it (Mark 16:15) and we can authenticate the message through His word, (Acts 17:11) with the Spirit’s help. That is why the miracle sign gifts faded away even as the NT was being written. 

As far as God moving in supernatural ways, no, God has never stopped. That is what providence is. (Romans 8:28). It’s what justification is. (Romans 4:25). It’s what regeneration is. (Titus 3:5). It’s what sanctification is. (1 Thessalonians 4:3). But He did stop giving men the gift of miracles, tongues, and prophecy.

Miracle of the Loaves & Fishes, James Tissot, 1896
Posted in charismatic, pentecostal, strange fire

Why the Charismatic excesses are not fringe

Posted on by elizabethprata

As the Strange Fire conference wrapped up Sunday, many Charismatics were incensed that the conference had deemed their movement as false and rebuked its excesses. Many who defended the movement said it was unfair to lump the sedate Charismatics/Pentecostals in with the “fringe”, who were the ones responsible for those excesses.

Christian Post reported,

“Another accusation has been that MacArthur and cessationists are talking about something that is only true of the extreme, lunatic fringe of the movement, to which he contends is “patently not true.” Because he believes there is error in the Charismatic movement that sweeps through the entire movement. “Ninety percent of the people around the world connected to the Charismatic movement take ownership of the prosperity gospel,” he said. “Twenty-four to 25 million of them deny the trinity. One hundred million of them are Roman Catholics. This is not some fringe; this is the movement. And it is growing at a rapid rate.”

But what is the Charismatic movement? What is Charismania? Discernment bloggers, evangelicals, conservative pastors, those who adhere to the doctrines of grace, etc., all know that Charismania isn’t fringe, but main body. The scope of the movement and its deep penetration into the heart of the evangelical body is frightening. The numbers are frightening, too. Alex Murashko noted in his article, “After John MacArthur’s Strange Fire Event: 10 Things You May Not Have Known About the Charismatic Mov’t“

“Islam is not the fastest-growing faith family in the world. Pentecostalism is. While Islam has gone from zero in 610 AD to 1.6 billion today (1,403 years), Pentecostalism went from zero to (about) a billion from 1906 to the present day (107 years).”

So it is obvious that if there are errors in the movement (and there are) and the movement is not fringe (and it isn’t) but is overtaking evangelicalism, it needs to be understood and its errors attended to.

The Charismatic Movement is the international trend of historically mainstream congregations adopting beliefs and practices similar to Pentecostals. (Wiki).

Fundamental to the movement is the use of the sign spiritual gifts. In one of the Strange Fire sessions, it was noted that the main influx of it ramped up in 1960, the 1906 beginnings of Azusa Street mentioned above, aside.

What is Charismania? Charismania is a derivative term usually applied by American Fundamentalist Christians to the extremists in the Christian Charismatic movement. In some cases it is used as a byword to describe the entire movement in a negative light. It was specifically coined to describe the perceivable chaos and mood swings (hence mania) that sometimes occur during Charismatic revival meetings.

 Such disorderly occurrences as, being “slain in the Spirit”, excessive laughing/crying, screaming, wild dancing, violent shaking, and interruptive speaking in tongues and prophesying led many fundamentalists to believe that the Devil was involved while Charismatic Christians asserted that these were manifestations of the Holy Spirit. (wiki)

The mania also includes jerking, shaking, falling to the floor, acting drunk, proclaiming visions and inside intelligence from Jesus directly that are not found in scripture, barking like dogs, violence, and more. It includes heaven tourism, in which a person allegedly has a vision where they are either bodily lifted up or in the spirit lifted to supernatural realms like heaven, or in some cases, hell.

So with the numbers as they are, the spread of it to most continents and nations, its fast growth, its lack of theology, its lack of fruit, its making a shipwreck of the faith for millions, is Charismania fringe? No.

When “Heaven is for Real” heaven tourism book sells 8M books and 1M ebooks, and is seen as more credible than the heaven revealed in the bible’s book of Revelation, Charismania isn’t fringe.

When John Piper, Beth Moore, Francis Chan teach Roman Catholic mystical practice Lectio Divina at Passion 2012 to 60,000 Youths at the conference, Charismania isn’t fringe.

When ‘Jesus Calling‘, a book touting personal revelation from Jesus, wins 2013 ECPA Christian Book of the Year, Charismania isn’t fringe.

When Mark Batterson’s pagan circle maker practice catches on at 2012 Indianapolis True Woman Conference w/ Joni Earickson Tada & Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Charismania isn’t fringe.

When SBC teacher Beth Moore has vision where Jesus appeared to her & revealed spiritual information and was told to share it, & she teaches FROM THAT, Charismania isn’t fringe.

Please take some time to listen to the sermons from Strange Fire. Here are some below. They all will be listed at the Strange Fire site soon. This is an important issue.

Are we preachers or are we Witch Doctors?(Conrad Mbewe)
Providence Is Remarkable (Phil Johnson)
An Appeal to My Continuationist Friends (John MacArthur)
Testing the Spirits (John MacArthur)
A Deeper Healing (Joni Eareckson Tada)
Strange Fire (John MacArthur)
Undervaluing Pentecost (R.C. Sproul)
A Case for Cessationism (Tom Pennington)
Is There a Baby in the Charismatic Bathwater? (Phil Johnson)

Here are some good wrap-up essays for you

10 Things you may not have known about the Charismatic Movement (Christian Post)

 Lessons Learned at Strange Fire (Tim Challies)

Where There’s Smoke, There’s Strange Fire (Clint Archer)

The Right Way and the Wrong Way to Engage John MacArthur’s Strange Fire Conference (Trevin Wax)

Posted in charismatic, macarthur, strange fire, tongues

Strange Fire: Final thoughts

Posted on by elizabethprata

John MacArthur/Grace Community Church hosted a major conference last week called Strange Fire. Its title is taken from the verses in Leviticus 10:1-3, where Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire before the LORD and they were killed by the LORD for it.

Strange Fire proclaimed truth
and the truth divides, Luke 12:51

The catalyst for the conference was because the organizers and speakers at Strange Fire had become concerned because of the improper worship offered to the Lord in the Holy Spirit’s name, in the form of the ever-growing Charismatic movement. This is the movement that has an expanding umbrella of false doctrines under it of Prosperity Gospel, miracles, tongues, healings, personal revelation, visions, intuition, and other shenanigans which the Charismatics claim are part of legitimate worship. The conference was held so that the men who were asked to speak could deliberately identify this movement as false and offer biblical reasons why. It was also intended to identify the true body of Christ, so that the body may be educated and the lost in this terrible movement be evangelized. Finally, it was to call out the leaders of both the Charismatic movement and the evangelical movement to step up and stand against it.

The conference was held on Wed-Thu-Fri Oct 16-17-18, and closed Sunday morning Oct 20 with a final message by Dr MacArthur at the Grace Community Church Lord’s Day morning service. I watched some live as it was happening, and some on YouTube when I got home from work each night. I saw the opening and closing sermon by Dr MacArthur, Phil Johnson’s stunning Baby in the Bathwater sermon, Tom Pennington’s case for cessationism, MacArthur’s address regarding the objections to having the conference, and Dr Steve Lawson’s brilliant sermon on the Puritans and cessationism. I also watched two Q&As, and the music worship. It was all great.

And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men. Isaiah 29:13.It’s been two days now since the final address by MacArthur, and my head and heart have had time to settle. The dust is now settling a bit also. The reaction to this conference was extreme. Twitter and blogs lit up with comments of all kinds, from support and thanks to hyperbole and incendiary fury. The Pope got involved. Christian and secular news reported on it. Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald, two men who lead churches, crashed the conference and then whipped up even more anger because they failed to be totally honest about what happened when they arrived. Accusations flew and theological battle lines were drawn. Phew.

It was sad to see such reactions but in another way, it was good. If you’re not taking flak, you’re not over the target, goes the old saying. It’s encouraging because I know that the Spirit was with the men of that conference and Jesus was honored by the truth being proclaimed.

The hyperbole is mostly on the side of people who disagree with the Strange Fire conference, either its existence or the content. The men who spoke at the Strange Fire conference were not hyperbolic, but spoke biblically in clarity, confidence and firmness, in love. Multitudes were edified, and said so.

Strange Fire: drew out men of faith.
It also drew out the faithless. Jo 8:32.

In fact, there is always hyperbole, division, and linguistic ruckus when the truth is proclaimed. Always. The fact that there IS such a ruckus is not indicative of a lack of work via the Holy Spirit, as some claim. To me, it is assurance that the Holy Spirit IS working. If we can take a look at the bible, Jesus spoke “hard sayings” and many left Him. Did He do it wrong? The Pharisees went hyperbolic over what Jesus was teaching, was the Holy Spirit not present?

In all that hullaballoo last week, there was one simple truth that was biblically explained time and again: the miracle sign gifts have ceased. The canon is closed. God is not speaking. Opening one’s self even one millimeter to the possibility of any of those things opens one’s faith to shipwreck, where it is heading for millions who believe they are experiencing visions and healings and miracles and tongues from the Holy Spirit, when it is really the devil.

This assertion inflamed millions, who hold that with half a billion people in the Charismatic movement they all can’t be wrong. LOL, by that standard, numbers, can a billion Muslims be wrong? A billion Catholics? Yes, and yes. And yes that many Charismatic people can be wrong too.

Both the number of heated reactions and the number of people involved in this false movement are staggering. It opened my eyes once again to the unfortunate fact of the proportions in the bible. There are many who are on the broad road, there are few on the narrow. Apostasy is on the rise so fast it is staggering.

CARM.org defines apostasy as “the falling away from the Christian faith. It is a revolt against the truth of God’s word by a believer. It can also describe a group or church organization that has “fallen away” from the truths of Christianity as revealed in the Bible.”

The Charismatics who believe in the things they believe (as discussed at Strange Fire) have fallen away from the truths of Christianity as revealed in the bible. It is depressing to see how many are drawn away.

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,” (1 Timothy 4:1)

“But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:3)

I was heartbroken to hear that half a billion people are drawn away from a sincere devotion to Christ and instead are pursuing ecstatic experiences that look and likely are demonic. In Dr MacArthur’s final sermon at the conference, which was Sunday morning, he said that no conference of that sort would be complete without addressing the likely end of people who defect from the faith, these defectors are the ones who don’t know they have defected and they plead with Jesus on His Day. Matthew 7:22 has it–

“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'”

 And grievously, the Lord will send them away, saying they are evil workers of iniquity and He never knew them. MacArthur noted that the list of works they use to plead their case are the exact list that the Charismatics insist are a work of the Spirit today: prophesyings, (and visions) demon deliverance, and miracles. The Charismatic movement as described at Strange Fire is indicative of apostasy.

This rising apostasy reminded me of a famous Japanese woodblock print called The Great Wave.

Wikipedia explains, “The Great Wave off Kanagawa is a woodblock print by the Japanese artist Hokusai. An example of ukiyo-e art, it was published sometime between 1830 and 1833 (during the Edo Period). This particular woodblock is one of the most recognized works of Japanese art in the world. It depicts an enormous wave threatening boats near the Japanese prefecture of Kanagawa. While sometimes assumed to be a tsunami, the wave is, as the picture’s title notes, more likely to be a large okinami – literally “wave of the open sea.” (source)

The foam at the top of the wave look like claws, ready to devour the helpless rowers underneath. That is apostasy, the lion prowling with claws ready to devour the helpless and hapless. By its very nature, the Charismatic movement opens scripture to additions, and this make a shipwreck of people and their faith.

In his book Toward An Exegetical Theology, Walter Kaiser wrote 34 years ago,

“It is no secret that Christ’s Church is not at all in good health in many places of the world. She has been languishing because she has been fed, as the current line has it, “junk food”; all kinds of artificial preservatives and all sorts of unnatural substitutes have been served up to her. As a result, theological and Biblical malnutrition has afflicted the very generation that has taken such giant steps to make sure its physical health is not damaged by using foods or products that are carcinogenic or otherwise harmful to their physical bodies. Simultaneously a worldwide spiritual famine resulting from the absence of any genuine publication of the Word of God continues to run wild and almost unabated in most quarters of the Church.“

“Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I will send a famine on the land— not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD. (Amos 8:11)

There will be a lot of good that will come from the conference, there always is with the Holy Spirit. Men were edified. Truth was taught. Praise and honor to the Lord was given. People clarified their positions, on both sides. And in a seemingly negative good is that it showed just how apostate so many really are. The Lord said that before He returns there will be a rebellion against the faith, a falling away from it.

“Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,” (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

“I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” (Luke 18:8)

“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.” (Luke 17:26).

The Lord WILL be glorified. With all the words that have been said and will be said, there is only one goal. Worship the Lord properly. Glorify Him in Spirit and in TRUTH.

“All the nations — and you made each one — will come and bow before you, Lord; they will praise your great and holy name. For you are great and perform great miracles. You alone are God.” (Psalm 86:9-10)

Posted in earthquakes, iran, israel, strange fire

Strange Fire defense; Indian seer sees gold; Israel quakes; Nomadic pursuits of beautiful earth; Bad real estate photos. More

Posted on by elizabethprata

Here are a few links for you to enjoy on various topics:

A measured and reasonable response to Strange Fire, a conference organized to reject the claims of Charismatics that prophecy, healing and tongues are a legitimate part of the church today. And truthful. It starts like this

In Defense of John MacArthur, Strange Fire Conference and the Challenge to the Charismatic Mov’t
“A lot of people seem to be angry with John MacArthur; it would be more comforting to me, and a greater testimony to American sensibility, if Christians were more concerned about Pat Robertson. That the former can openly state his opposition to what he believes the falsified expression of spiritual power, is far less offensive than a man who has openly and repeatedly claimed to be speaking the words of God, but whose failed prophesies have proven him heretical. Yet the former man is almost universally condemned as hateful and divisive, while the latter maintains his audience for what? Not one, but multiple generations, despite a televised broadcast in which he said that Jesus told him President Obama would lose the last election.”

I’m very conflicted about Halloween. Our church does a large and popular outreach. Yet it is the devil’s night. This essay settled some things for me.
Halloween: Trick, Treat or Missional? – Jo Saxton

Monumentally bad real estate photos that will make you laugh The captions make it.
Like this one:

Presumably the idea being conveyed here is that if you don’t buy the house, the agent can arrange for you come to significant harm when you least expect it. Submitted by Jaques LeHommes, for which merci.

Joel C Rosenberg posted the following about Israel:

Netanyahu makes case for a preemptive strike during major speech on the 40th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War.
“Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu offered a thinly veiled defense of a possible Israeli preemptive strike on Iran during a Knesset commemoration Tuesday of the 40th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War,” reports the Times of Israel.”

Speaking of Israel, there were several earthquakes there this week.

Two earthquakes in one day shake northern Israel
“Head of Geophysical Institute: Still no explanation for temblors; no reports of injuries or damage. While no injuries or significant damages afflicted surrounding areas, a string of minor earthquakes have rattled Israel’s North over the past few days – including two on Sunday alone.”

Jiro dreamed of sushi but this India seer dreams of gold- and everyone started digging
“NEW DELHI: Archaeologists began excavating an abandoned palace in Daudiakala village, Uttar Pradesh on Friday after a popular Hindu holy man said he dreamt 1,000 tonnes of gold were buried underneath. The dig at the fort of Raja Rao Ram Bux Singh in Daudiakala village, Uttar Pradesh, started after Swami Shobhan Sarkar relayed his vision of the treasure to a federal government minister three months ago.”

Jim Nix at Nomadic Pursuits has a slew of gorgeous HDR photos to feast your eyes on, like this one

“This is one beautiful cathedral, and I am very happy to have found it on my recent trip to Brussels. I passed through Brussels last year and despite shooting quite a bit of the town, I never actually saw this cathedral (or knew about it, honestly). I’m not sure how I missed it, but am glad that I corrected it when I was there a couple of weeks back.”