discernment – Page 59

Discerning the times: checking what a youtube prophet says against the Word

Posted on April 5, 2012 by elizabethprata

Many Christians today feel the burden of the times. Many more feel an imminence that is akin to a pregnant woman about to burst. Even the unsaved feel like something is coming.

And something IS coming: Jesus. The times are definitely drawing to a close and though no one knows exactly when, the Spirit is sending fervor and imminence to many. He raised up many people who send the warnings about the times, as He has done with me.

But He also said that this time will be perilous for Christians (2 Timothy 3:1) and that it will be a time that is permeated with deceit. In Matthew 24:4-5 He said “And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many”. As the Strong’s word concordance says of the word ‘misleads’, the Greek word Paul used is plané which means “a wandering; deceit, delusion, error, sin.” That verse means people will come in Christ’s name to lead us wandering sheep away from the truth into delusion.

This steady rising of deceit that is mentioned so many times in relation to the end times in so many books and verses, will culminate in total deceit on earth in the Tribulation when the Lord sends the great delusion that will come over the world, and they accept the antichrist. (2 Thess 2:10-11). He will remove the moderating influence of the Holy Spirit as Restrainer (2 Thess 2:6).

So it behooves us to heed warnings about people who come in Christ’s name with messages that may be false. We are also warned by watchmen to heed true warnings about the times and to live a Godly life. It is up to each Christian to pray for the Spirit to lead them into discernment when listening to or reading messages, including mine. Test all things against scripture.

Here is a discernment lesson regarding one of the new Youtube prophets someone sent me to look at. Now this person was thrilled to have discovered him. I listened to several of his youtube clips. I was not as thrilled. I really hate throwing cold water on people’s excitement, but if the excitement is over someone or something that may be false, then isn’t it better to have cold water thrown than to go away under an unfortunate spiritual impression? Water dries but cold water at least gives us all a shock to stop a moment and consider things.

So I decided to post this as a discernment lesson. It is an insight into how I approach the issue of determining for myself whether someone may be speaking truth or not.

First, I pray that the Spirit lead and guide me into the scriptures that will speak to the discernment I seek.
Then I do look those verses up and check them in the bible.
I pray for an attitude of gentleness but boldness in stating what the Spirit had led me to.

The young man, whose name is not on his Youtube account, but goes by “warningthepeople”, mentions several times about having been a paid pastor and stepping away to be a watchman, foregoing any payment at all. He focuses on that. What does the bible say about being paid?

Being paid as a pastor is not necessarily a bad thing nor is it necessarily a good thing, but it is a biblical thing.

1 Timothy 5:17-18, “The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, ‘Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,’ and ‘The worker deserves his wages.’” 1 Corinthians 9:14 declares, “In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.”

So being paid is a biblical thing and at root, a neutral thing. It’s not good nor bad but necessary. Here is a link to a short essay about whether a pastor should be paid. In these links I give, the scriptures are in the essay.

Therefore if this Youtube person has received a word from the Lord about not being paid, I must wonder why what Jesus told him about not being paid contradicts what He already said in the bible.

I also wonder if he was a paid pastor presumably he had come previous calling to that work, and if he is being called away from it now (so soon? He looks young) then why Jesus would contradict Himself by first calling him to the pastorate and then tell him to quit the pastorate… Philippians 1:6 says “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” Did Jesus fumble in calling the young man to be a pastor? Did He change His mind? Did he train him up with a flock only to tell him to abandon that flock? Likely not.

Here is a link discussing how a pastor can know if he is being called to be a pastor and this link, “A call to Ministry.“

Third, he said that he was told by Jesus in this new ministry as watchman to warn his friends and family. Since he had been a paid pastor and had some training at college in Biblical Studies, a license, some passion for the Gospel, and some skill at it (he had earned so much respect as he stated) then why hadn’t he warned his family and friends before his calling to give it all up to be a watchman? Warning friends and family is usually the first thing pastors do and do it relentlessly (if skillfully and gently).

Being a pastor is also a call to be a watchman. A Pastor preaches the entire counsel of God, which includes the doctrine of His coming. (Acts 20:20, 27). A Pastor means shepherd and a shepherd watches his flock and guards his flock warns of dangerous things, so the two ministries are not incompatible, they are actually intertwined. Yet the young man seemed to separate them one as far from the east as from the west…

Fourth: I am not sure I agree with his interpretation of Ezekiel 33 about the watchman who fails his duty. He said that watchmen who fail to warn will be thrown into hell. If a person is saved according to the New Testament, nothing can snatch him out of Jesus’s hand. (John 10:28). We have eternal security. However it is true that those who are called to teach and preach are entering into a serious relationship with Jesus with special burdens. Paul says Acts 20, “I am clear from the blood of any man, I have not failed to declare unto you the whole counsel of God. I’ve discharged my duty.” Hebrews 13:17 says that we have to give an account to God for how we give leadership and direction and teaching to God’s people. It is indeed a serious issue. “Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.” (James 3:1)

But if a person is saved under the New Covenant of the cross they will not be thrown into hell for failing duties. If that were true we would all be at risk of failing commands of God, such as failing the Great Commission, failing the Greatest Commandment (Luke 10:27) and other commands that are just as explicit as the call to the Old Testament watchmen. We are saved. That is what saved means, saved from hell.

One must be careful not to extrapolate with impunity the OT to the NT. Careful exegesis demands we look at the entire book, we look at all the verses in context, to whom it was written, why it was written, when it was written, and appeal to the Spirit for proper application of the verse. I don’t think the young man has done that here.

Most worrisome, in his video on his personal testimony, he never mentions how he was saved. He speaks of growing up in the church, but not of his repentance, his sin, and Jesus’s authority as Sinless Savior to forgive these. Worse, he says that at age 23 he came to a crisis of faith, and wondered how he could determine if the “religion” he was in was the true one. How did he know if his denomination was right, or whether a Buddhist had more wisdom in settling on his own faith? Foremost I must say, we don’t exist in a religion, we dwell in the holy relationship with Christ. Every true Christian knows that. But be that as it may, the young man said he posted cards all around asking the Spirit to lead him into truth. He did not say he searched the scriptures, as Paul said is the more noble way to do in Acts 17:11. Instead, he found truth in dreams the “Lord” sent. That is a dead giveaway that he is a false prophet. Elevating personal experience over scriptural truth is absolutely wrong. Even Peter, who saw the transfiguration, said that we have a more sure word.

Henry Morris said in the Institute for Creation Research: “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.” (2 Peter 1:19). As eyewitnesses, they bore the onus of bearing witness to the facts. But he downplayed the importance of his own personal testimony, even though it was a firsthand account and quite important, and he knew it was absolutely correct. The “more sure word of prophecy” he recommended, however, which outshines any human testimony, was the written Word of God, for the Transfiguration confirmed numerous Old Testament prophecies concerning Christ. Prophecies already fulfilled multiply our confidence in the rest of Scripture.”

Personal testimony from dreams is not inerrant. The Word is.

Next: I worry that the gentleman says many times that he will do what Jesus “tells” him to do. Does he hear these commands audibly? Does he hear them in dreams and visions? (Some, he says, yes). Are they new revelations or are they commands to exhortation from what is already written? How has the gentleman discerned that these audible commands telling him to do certain things are in fact from Jesus? Or has he? I don’t think he has, because he relates dreams and does not share the scriptures.

I am always skeptical of people who say that have had dreams and visions and that Jesus told them to say things to the people. I’m skeptical because God’s final word is through Jesus and Jesus IS His word. (John 1:1-5 and Hebrews 1:1-2). There are no new revelations. If the gentleman wants to be obedient to Jesus that is wonderful! But he must do so under the direction of the Spirit’s leading him into understanding of the Word. Not a disembodied voice telling him to do things…

In one youtube clip he related a dream but then said that it was up to us to interpret it. However, in Scripture, whenever a person asked God for the meaning of a vision, God ensured it was explained to the person (Daniel 8:15-17).

The young man speaks of the Lord giving him messages in dreams to then relate to the people. I do not believe that what he is dreaming is directly from Jesus. As stated above, the revelatory period of direct message by Jesus to His people is over, and it is all contained in His word. Revelation 22:18-19 says that no one may add nor take away from the words of that book. Some have tried to say that only applies to Revelation but Revelation is the last book. With that warning, Jesus closed the canon. You can go here to read a short essay from a solid bible teacher about prophecy and the closed canon–

Prophecy and the Closed Canon

We are all hungry for more information. We are all hungry for insights into the times and what is happening behind the scenes. Would that we were all given a glimpse like Elisha’s servant (2 Kings 6:17) or a glimpse like Paul was given (2 Cor 12:2)! But Paul was explicitly told not to say what went on there. And the inside glimpses we are given are contained in the Word.

The bible tells us all we need to know. I ask you gently to consider these thoughts and concerns and to seek answers from scripture as to whether what I shared with you is aligned with the Word, and to compare to what the young watchman has to say with the word also. That is how I came to the conclusion he is not someone we should listen to. Many people are raising up who claim special insights from Jesus. But unless they found them by the Spirit leading them into truth by the Holy Word, then they are false. No truth exists outside of the bible.

I believe the time is short, and therefore I cling to the words of the bible more than ever and I compare the words of men with what the bible says. And because time is short, we will know all that God intends for us to know, shortly! (1 Cor 13:9-12). I truly believe that there are no extra glimpses prior to that time.

If we pray, study the word, and are VERY familiar with the real thing, then when a counterfeit comes along we can spot it. In this way we grow in Him. Then we shall not be children any longer, or tossed one way and another and carried along by every wind of doctrine, at the mercy of all the tricks men play and their cleverness in practicing deceit. If we live by the truth and in love, we shall grow in all ways into Christ, who is the head. (Eph 4:14-15)

discernment, watchman

"Asleep on the watch"

Posted on January 22, 2012 by elizabethprata

“Somebody please wake the watchmen! I would rather have sadness and grief with much tears, bringing us to repentance, than to continue to see the churches being infiltrated and assimilated by New Age Occultism, false teaching, heresies, philosophies of men and doctrines of demons as the watchmen sleep.” (source)

Another good article on the biblical explanation of what a watchman does from the Old Testament and New Testament, here.

back to basics, discernment

Back to Basics: What discernment is

Posted on January 18, 2012May 9, 2016 by elizabethprata

We in the body of Christ are not to judge those outside the church, (1 Cor 5:12). That is because, as Barnes Notes explains, “I have no authority over them; and can exercise no jurisdiction over them. All my rules, therefore, must have reference only to those who are within the church.” However, we inside the church are to judge for ourselves whether a teaching is true or not. (1 Corinthians 5:12-13).

Romans 12:9; 1 Cor 14:29; 1 John 4:1 also reminds us that we are to judge, discern, test, etc., the teachings we receive. The Bereans searched whether Paul’s teaching was consistent with the bible, and tested what they heard against it. Paul applauded them for that. Given what we see from Christians today, even if they DO go so far as to test it out, if they find the teaching failed the test, they then remain silent so as to pursue a sense of unity. This is a wrong-headed approach. Any unity arising by silent believers suffering under a teaching they know to be false is a false unity. We are not told so many times in those verses above to test out the teachings we receive just so we can stay quiet about the false ones. We are to speak up.

We don’t use the heart to judge a teaching. Just because someone says their teaching is “from their heart” or it looks to us that it is heartfelt, or it touches our heart, we are liable to hear Jesus chastise us through His word, “Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.” (John 7:24). Anyone can look sincere. Joel Osteen looks very heartfelt, his speeches come across as being from his heart. But are they consistent with what the bible says? No. Being discerning means looking deeper.

We are being gullible if we fall for the old “from the heart” standard. Why? Because the “heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick, who can know it?” (Jer 17:9). The heart is the WORST standard to judge anything. Joseph Smith’s teaching is from the heart and his religion consigned many millions to darkness (Mormonism). Muhammad’s teaching is from the heart and many millions following Allah are likewise consigned to darkness. Oprah is teaching New Age ecumenism from the heart and also many who follow it will end up in eternal darkness. Being heartfelt has nothing to do with whether a teaching is right.

If a person’s standard to determine if a false teaching is

–from the heart
–the teacher seems like a religious person
–they are prospering so it means God is blessing them, so it must be good

then I submit that person is dangerously misled as to what biblical discernment is.

Those standards are exactly the opposite of what we should be using as a barometer for determining if a teacher is true or false. Discernment is not a “nudge from the Spirit,” because that calls for subjective decisions and as per the verse about the heart, subjective assessments on any given situation are not valid. The only way to practice discernment is to test against the bible. (1 Thess 5:21).

Tim Challies wrote a book about Discernment. He defines it this way:

” ‘Discernment is the ability to think biblically about all areas of life.’ A longer, more thorough definition might be something like this: ‘Spiritual discernment is the God-given, Spirit-empowered ability to understand and interpret truth, so that we can apply truth to our lives, thus bringing glory to God and furthering our enjoyment of Him.”

“The Hebrew word for discernment is used 247 times in the Old Testament. The word has been translated variously as understand, discern, and distinguish. The Greek word is used similarly in the New Testament. It too refers to a process of separating or discriminating whereby truth may be set apart in relief from that which is false. In short, discernment is a filtering process by which a person distinguishes and separates good from the bad, right from wrong, and truth from error.” (source: Tim Challies, “Defining Discernment” )

If a person does that, they are being led by the Holy Spirit. I pray you come to this understanding as well, and be unafraid to discern a good teaching from a bad, and to speak up about both. Praise good teaching, point out false teaching, and as always, pray ceaselessly. “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). Don’t fall prey to one of them. Be discerning.

discernment, end of days. prophecy, end time

What discernment and prophecy blogs are for

Posted on September 22, 2011 by elizabethprata

Discernment ministries and end time prophetic ministries are like the Doppler effect. The Doppler effect is heard when, say, a vehicle sounding a siren or horn approaches you, passes, and goes away from you. The frequency is higher during the approach, it is correct at the instant of passing by, and it is lower during the going away.

When you hear a siren, your ears perk up, even when it is in the distance. As it approaches you might think “Gee, it’s getting closer, I hope everything is OK.’ You listen for a moment to determine of the siren is indicating a fire near you or a crime that you should be worried about in your immediate vicinity. As the siren recedes you breathe an unconscious sigh of relief. You know that there are first responders at the scene who are helping and attending to the afflicted. You go your way relaxing at each step, initially relieved that the siren is now out of earshot and secure in the knowledge that others are on the case.

We don’t partake of a steady diet of the siren. For example, if you get the siren from the police car and install it in your home, you will become irritated after a while, then aggravated, then angry. It will totally consume everything you hear, think about or talk about, rather than the other normal things you do in your home.

Discernment and Prophetic ministries are that siren. You’re not supposed to live on a steady diet of it. Discernment verses are in the bible and prophecy makes up one third of the bible, but even at that, there is OTHER meat we live upon. The first responders at the scene are other Christians, attending to neighbors, caring for them in the ways that they need. The siren alerts you, but only to let you know that there is an urgency somewhere in the world. You need to go along and join the people helping at the place where help is needed, not sit and listen to the siren all the time.

What I and others do is give you the tools you need to begin appealing to the Spirit for discernment. It isn’t to educate you on each and every false doctrine. It isn’t for you to ingest a steady diet of falsity apart from the truth of the bible and Jesus. It is to give you a grounding of what is true balanced against what is false, and to learn to begin regularly appealing to the Spirit for greater depth in distinguishing between the two. I’ll give you an example from my own life.

When I first came to the Lord, I was fascinated with fallen angels and the demonic realms. I studied the topic intensely. I bought books, I read web pages, I watched youtube videos. After about four or five months I realized that quite some time had gone by since I’d listened to a sermon on some good meat such as the Gospel, or the life of Jesus, or joy in ministry. I vowed then and there to quit cold turkey and only focus on Him.

As for End Time/Prophetic Ministries, the same thing goes. A steady diet of absorbing every nuance of each little jot and tittle of the news plus biblical references to prophecy may be instructive, but there is other meat in the bible that is important to be absorbed. For example, I don’t usually listen to sermons about prophetic things. The other day I listened to a sermon on The Humble Gospel. Right now I’m listening to a sermon on the joy Paul had in the Thessalonican church.

We need meat, but if you had hamburger every night you would get sick of it! A prophetic ministry is there to offer you enough meat so you understand the prophesies, and that you understand the times, SO THAT you allow the Spirit to then increase your urgency and fervor for Living for Him, knowing He may come back any second and the next second you will be facing Him.

Anonymous on my previous blog entry regarding wolves and gratitude made a great comment. The comment was actually the catalyst for this blog entry. That person had said, “I think I might take a step away from discernment blogs because they just make me angry. The latest thing I saw was a band at Perry Noble’s church singing AC/DC’s highway to hell on Easter Sunday!!!! It’s such an obvious move from the kingdom of evil and I was just blown away at how satan’s tares have infiltrated the church…it’s all getting too much. I think I know enough now to focus on praying for those that are deceiving and those that are getting deceived. I’ve also been studying bible prophecy and the headlines a wee too much for awhile now. It’s all SO interesting but I sometimes do it instead of spending time with God. I hope that’s ok to admit on here LOL…”

It is!

Feel free to come and go, to learn biblical standards and discernment and then go your way being salt and light. It actually makes me proud of Anonymous to read “I think I know enough now to focus on praying for those that are deceiving and those that are getting deceived.” Yes! That is how it should work. The information on Discernment blogs and Prophecy blogs should not be information in and of itself but only be a launching point to go into the world and worship, serve, and praise.

Selah!
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bible jesus, discernment, end time, prophecy, wolves

Some thoughts about wolves and some thoughts about gratitude

Posted on September 21, 2011May 19, 2024 by elizabethprata

By Elizabeth Prata

From Chris Rosebrough’s Twitter stream, (AKA Pirate Christian) thought provoking enough for me to present them here. Do you have wolf stories to share? Do you have some things you’re grateful about? Please feel free to share! Here’s Chris:

“If the tweet your pastor sent on Friday is longer than the Bible passage he preached about on Sunday…#HeMightBeAWolf.”

“If your pastor is “allergic” to words such as sin, blood, redemption, penal substitution, wrath, hell & propitiation …. #HeMightBeAWolf”

“If your pastor spends the summer preaching on the latest blockbuster movies rather than preaching God’s Word…. #HeMightBeAWolf.”

“Discernment Fact: Wolves travel in packs. When a pastor invites a heretic to “preach” to his flock, chances are the pastor is also a wolf.”

“Lord I thank you for ordinary office workers who commute to work everyday & toil in the corporate world.”

“Lord I thank you for ordinary moms & dads who are emptying themselves and raising the next generation.”

“Lord I thank you for the humble men who work the trash trucks in my neighborhood and keep my city clean.”

“LORD I thank you for the daily grind, for the mundane & the same old routine. You are glorified in the ordinary.”

Back to me now. I am grateful for pastors who stand on the Word. I listen to many excellent expository preachers. I listen to my own preacher every week and I’m grateful that there are still pastors in these dangerously apostate times who still preach by the Spirit like he does. Please take a moment to thank your pastor and your elders and deacons and ministry leaders and teachers for what they do.

beth moore, bible, bible jesus, discernment, heresy, the shack

Discernment lesson: The Shack and Beth Moore’s treatment of Paul. Part 1

Posted on August 27, 2011 by elizabethprata

Writers live with words. We are immersed in them, basking in their variety and understanding their power. I have been a journalist, so I know this intimately. A reporter chooses words consciously because we are limited to short article lengths. We must be precise, knowing that each word must convey a certain meaning in a short amount of space. I’ve been a grant writer, and have been even more restricted to limiting the number of words we are allowed to use. I know that each word counts and is consciously placed on the technical document to convey a certain thought. I’ve been an academic researcher, overlaying words to express what the numbers are saying. When I read a book I know that the author has chosen each word, and in some cases likely has fought with an editor over them.

Therefore when I read a book like William P. Young’s “The Shack” or Beth Moore’s “To Live Is Christ: a Study of Paul’s Life and Ministry,” I know that each word is on the page consciously and for an author-chosen reason. I also know that most readers absorb information unconsciously. The most dangerous heresies come from books, in my opinion, because a speaker could possibly be forgiven for misspeaking (once or twice). An author cannot. Writing takes time, and as noted above, each word is chosen purposely.

Most people read books without thinking of the words, but they are absorbed into the mind and certain emotions the author wanted to evoke will be created in the reader’s heart. So please take note carefully when I say that discerning either Christian novels such as The Shack, or biblical non-fiction theological books as the ones Beth Moore writes have an intent. They are sharing a point of view in which the author desires to present a point and often that point is made without you even noticing it. Let’s take a look at exactly what I mean when I say words count and they shade meaning.

I wrote a few years ago in a blog entry on The Quiet Life that “The Shack is a devilish Deception. I’d said about The Shack, “A concern is also in the sly ways the book chips away at solid biblical principles with craftily written statements such as, “the dusty old King James Bible” or church attendance is “religious conditioning” or that the term “Christian” is “outdated”, as uttered by in the book by the character “Jesus”, saying, “Who said anything about being a Christian? I am not a Christian.” People may not even be consciously aware of having read negative intent against the bible or Jesus but they are influenced by them anyway.”

Pastor Walter Henegar at the blog byFaith wrote of the sly craftiness of Young’s choice of words in The Shack, and their cumulative effect: “[D]isdain is conveyed early on: “God’s voice had been reduced to paper. … Nobody wanted God in a box, just in a book. Especially an expensive one bound in gilt edges, or was that guilt edges?” (p. 65-67). … More significant, when Mack [the main character] mentions biblical events or concepts (often in gross caricature), “God” promptly brushes them off and glibly explains how it really is. Unlike the biblical Jesus, who constantly quoted the Old Testament and spent many post-resurrection hours “opening their minds to understand the scriptures,” The Shack’s Papa, Jesus, and Sarayu turn Mack’s attention away from Scripture, coaxing him to trust instead their simplistic lessons set in idyllic, Thomas Kinkade-like scenes and delivered in the familiar therapeutic language of our age. … The result? To the extent that you trust The Shack, you will distrust your Bible—including huge chunks of the Old Testament and at least half of the red letters. Few errors are more corrosive to vigorous Christian faith. Some will plead that there is enough meat for careful readers to spit out the bones, but sadly, this yeast leavens the whole loaf.”

Mr Henegar makes a good point about the leaven. A leavening agent is used in recipes where the desired outcome lightens and softens the entire batch. Yeast is a common leavening agent. The dough rises upon foaming bubbles as carbon dioxide is released, making air pockets. However, since leaven is an ingredient, it is mixed thoroughly in the batch, and no part of the batch is left untouched by it. If the leaven is bad, the whole loaf will be spoiled.

That is a good metaphor for bad doctrine. No part of the church will be left untouched by heresy coming from the pulpit. No part of the mind will be left untouched by a false doctrine when reading it in a book. Such use of sly language is highly corrosive. Avoid The Shack. And when reading any book that alleges affiliation with Christianity, be mindful of the words the author chooses. Young says the bible is dusty, old, and outdated. I say the bible is fresh, living, and inspired. The difference in the words we choose reveals a point of view. Don’t absorb Young’s.

To those who dismiss any criticism of The Shack because it is ‘just’ a novel, Mr Henegar explains, “Of course, not every detail is worth dissecting; a novel is not systematic theology. Yet it’s clearly more than just fiction. Mack’s conversations with Papa, Jesus, and Sarayu make up the bulk of the book, with his questions serving as little more than prompts for their extended divine speeches. Though never citing Scripture directly, the characters make enough allusions to biblical content to imply fidelity to orthodox Christianity.”

Of course if Young has written, “Don’t believe the bible because it is old and outdated” you would spot the heresy easily. The craftiest heresy doesn’t announce itself. It lays lurking in the negative words authors use to describe holy things.

I feel so strongly that The Shack contains crafty heresy, that not only did I write about it on my secular blog, but also on this blog, The End Time. Four times in all.

Burning Down The Shack

Why Christians Should Not Read The Shack

The Shack is a Doctrine of Demons

In the next blog entry coming up momentarily, let’s take a look at a book that is not a Christian novel but a biblical exploration of the life of Paul from Christian speaker Beth Moore. We’ll look at how Mrs Moore uses words to shape your perspective of Paul away from the biblical presentation of his character and toward her own skewed and emotional point of view of the man.
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beth moore, bible jesus, bible teaching, discernment

Troubled by Beth Moore’s teaching: Part 7, Conclusion

Posted on July 22, 2011May 20, 2024 by elizabethprata

By Elizabeth Prata

I’ve spent a good deal of blog time writing the last day or so about the errors in Beth Moore’s teachings. I hope that my careful analysis and examples using scripture showed you not only where Beth Moore’s teaching is in need of strengthening, but that it also provided enough of a lesson for how to be discerning of any teacher who teaches the Bible. We all long for good teachers of the Word. We all need strengthening in these evil days, and the Word is truly the only good strengthening there is. We can trust it. We read and study on our own, but who isn’t refreshed by a good teaching among brethren once in a while? Certainly I am. But trusting today’s Bible teachers is another matter entirely.

I’m wary of women teachers. There are good ones, but there are also bad ones. Women have a tendency to teach the Word from emotion and personal experience. Why not? That is how most women relate to the world. But with the Word, it is not the natural way to teach its truths.

I believe the Lord did a good thing putting the brakes on female teachers of the Word. I’m not saying that there should never be women teachers. The Bible shows us that there were women contending alongside Paul. (Phil 4:3). Priscilla was noted along with her husband as a teacher of the Word. (Acts 18:26). Phoebe is noted as an outstanding servant at the church (Romans 16:1) and in Acts 21:8 Philip’s four unmarried daughters are mentioned as prophets. All these women are speaking the Lord’s Truth in public or to the public in some way.

But there is also mentioned a father, apostle, or husband working closely with the woman. I think this is good and wise. Now, before I get thousands of emails calling me a betrayer of my gender, I’m just reflecting back to you from scripture the way God set it up. I think in the cases where women are teachers it takes a special attention to ensure the Word is handled properly because of the tendency to teach emotionally and relationally. I am reminded of the warning we received in 2 Timothy 3:6, “They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires…”. What is spoken of in the verse just prior is to watch out for people who “having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.”

Barnes Notes explains that “For of this sort are they which creep into houses – Who go slyly and insidiously into families. They are not open and manly in endeavoring to propagate their views, but they endeavor by their address to ingratiate themselves first with weak women, and through them to influence men; compare Titus 1:11. … And lead captive silly women – One of the tricks always played by the advocates of error, and one of the ways by which they seek to promote their purposes. Satan began his work of temptation with Eve rather than with Adam, and the advocates of error usually follow his example. There are always weak-minded women enough in any community to give an opportunity of practicing these arts, and often the aims of the impostor and deceiver can be best secured by appealing to them. Such women are easily flattered; they are charmed by the graceful manners of religious instructors; they lend a willing ear to anything that has the appearance of religion, and their hearts are open to anything that promises to advance the welfare of the world. At the same time, they are just such persons as the propagators of error can rely upon. They have leisure; they have wealth; they are busy; they move about in society, and by their activity they obtain an influence to which they are by no means entitled by their piety or talents. There are, indeed, very many women in the world who cannot be so easily led away as men; but it cannot be denied also that there are those who are just adapted to the purposes of such as seek to spread plausible error.”

The verse says that some women are easy prey to seducers, plain and simple, and we see the model of that in Genesis 3:1. So who are the good women teachers? Well, I don’t know. But in one of the blog entries I referred to The Watchman’s Bagpipes, a discernment and apologetics blog run by Glenn E. Chatfield. He had done a point by point look at the statements Beth Moore has made and did so with gentleness but truth.

Glenn E. Chatfield at The Watchman’s Bagpipes said, “While maybe not noticed in her books, Beth Moore’s arrogant and obnoxious behavior on her DVDs are something Christians should not emulate or even condone. Additionally, her teachings are rife with error and pop-psychology. Although Beth Moore indeed has some excellent teachings, her error is of the nature that she should be warned against and not given a pass because of her popularity. Women have much better role models in Kay Arthur, Joni Eareckson Tada, Jill Briscoe, Martha Peace and others.”

I have not personally partaken of any of the teachings of any of these women except for Kay Arthur, and in Kay I found no error. Kay teaches how to study the Bible, precept by precept, and so her studies do a double duty. You learn the Word and you learn HOW to study the Word. But if you decide to investigate any of these women teachings yourself, then I feel if you have read all the blog entries on Beth Moore, have studied what the Bible has to say about wisdom and discernment, and prayed, then you have a good grounding in how to detect solidity in biblical teaching, if it is there, and how to detect if it is not.

Philip Way wrote a good series on “Learn to Discern“. Tim Challies also wrote a good book, “The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment.” Because ultimately, sisters, it is not about Beth Moore. It is about us in our own walk and growth. Are we maturing? Do we rely on the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth? Have we been practicing discernment? Can we detect whether we ourselves are a silly woman, held captive by sin, or are a sensible pious woman of Proverbs 31?

Pray much and rely on our Helper. In John 14:26 Jesus told the Apostles, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” And we know where reliance on Him and His Helper have led us since that time…to a world where the truth has blanketed it, leading us out of sin and darkness. To the only faith where we can know the truth, and know The Truth, personally. Rely on Him always and let Him lead you into good discernment.

Entries in this series

Troubled by Beth Moore’s teaching: Part 1, Introduction and Casualness
Beth Moore plays up the southern belle, delicate flower, Texas big hair, ultra-feminine mystique…something that I as a Yankee find mystifying. It’s a cultural thing, I know. But just because it is a women’s ministry doesn’t mean all women will understand the southern belle, delicate flower, Texas big hair persona or even understand what she’s talking about half the time. However, if the Bible is center stage, it will transcend cultural differences, wouldn’t it? Let’s see.

Troubled by Beth Moore Teaching, Part 2: Un-dignified teaching
In which I look at one of the things that happens when women teach (tag-end questions and affirmation seeking), the undignified delivery of her lessons, and the problems with a rapid-fire teaching.

Troubled by Beth Moore’s Teaching, Part 3: Contemplative Prayer
In which I explain what Contemplative Prayer is, why it is bad, and Beth Moore’s participation in it.

Troubled by Beth Moore Teaching, Part 4: Legalism
In which I define legalism, and show three examples of Moore’s tendency toward it.

Troubled by Beth Moore’s Teaching, Part 5: Personal Revelation
Beth Moore claims direct revelation from God. Is this biblical?

Troubled by Beth Moore’s Teaching, Part 6: Eisegesis, Pop Psychology, & Bad Bible Interpretations
Does she interpret the Bible that badly?

Troubled By Beth Moore’s Teaching, Part 7: Conclusion
It is not about Beth Moore-it is about our own proper discernment. Recommendations for discernment studies and also good women teachers

beth moore, bible, discernment, teaching

Troubled by Beth Moore’s teaching, Part 2

Posted on July 21, 2011May 20, 2024 by elizabethprata

By Elizabeth Prata In part one of “Troubled by Beth Moore’s Teaching,” I outlined some of my biases, and listed one of my first concerns with her approach to Bible teaching. I’ll go on to the next concern now, a concern about her method of delivery. I’ll get into her theology in part three. In this essay I’ll explore her tendency for seeking affirmation tag-end questioning, the lack of dignity in delivery of the teaching, and her rapid-fire talk. In the next piece I’ll look at her attempts to extract biblical truth from personal experience (eisegesis) and finally, her theology. In one pet peeve that drives me crazy about females in general, as part of their gender rhetoric they ask for affirmation at the end of their sentences. The less secure a woman is, the more she will use questioning affirmations to relate to the audience, whether it is one (husband) or thousands (Beth Moore audience.) An example of Beth’s seeking affirmation at the end of sentences: “Are you with me?” “Do you understand?” She does this a lot. These are called tag-end questions and the woman’s tendency to use them as a method of establishing rapport and relationship building was observed by gender sociologist and linguist Deborah Tannen and Robin Lakoff in the mid to late 70s. People say their research has debunked the female tendency to use hedge language and tag-end questions, but anyone who has listened to a mother on the playground, restaurant, or checkout line knows this kind of speech is alive and well: You hear it in moms who don’t declare things, as in “put your toys away now,” but instead they ask the child’s permission: “Put your toys away now, OK?” It is an unfortunate tendency in women, but it is absolutely credibility-diminishing for women Bible teachers. The Bible is authoritative. Teachers delivering a teaching message from it should be authoritative! Just make declarations about its truths! You don’t have to check for understanding every five minutes. The Holy Spirit does that. He delivers its teaching. (John 14:26). The Spirit delivers the wisdom (Eph 1:17). On to my next concern with her method of teaching. I haven’t gotten to the content yet! I’m going in order of least offensive to greatest offenses. Next: She isn’t dignified. Yes, that’s what I said. Beth Moore is not dignified on her stage. She moves around a lot, quickly delivering scriptures and her interpretations in rapid-fire fashion. She will use tricks like having a wastebasket prop to “throw away” negative behaviors, she presses participants to wear bracelets that supposedly mean certain things (I read this from three blogs) and she will contort, kneel, dance, and generally cut up, sometimes while holding the Bible. Laughter is frequent.

Call me staid (Decorous? Sedate?) but I don’t think Paul hung “I AM” posters around the necks of hapless volunteers in the synagogues when he was reasoning with them…

A Bible lesson is not a comedy routine. I am all for laughter. Our pastor says some funny things sometimes and the congregation will of course laugh. I am among those who laugh loud and I’m sure even the choir can hear me from where I sit. But teaching the Bible with respect requires some gravitas. It requires some dignity. It isn’t a prop or a party trick. I shun antics as the main behavior of the teaching session. Funny sometimes, yes. Zany Bible teachers? No. Lest you think that I am too picky, let’s turn to the scriptures and see what they say about mature leaders of the church handling the word of God. Be sober, be alert, be wise– Instructions for Ministers: “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;” (1 Timothy 3:2-3) Instructions for wives of ministers: “Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.” (1 Timothy 3:11) Instructions for aged men: “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.” (Titus 2:11-12) Instructions for aged women: “Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may train the younger women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be self-controlled, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.” (Titus 2:3-5) Do you get the idea that the church leaders, teachers, and elders should be dignified? I hope so. The scriptures are clear. Anyone who has seen a Beth Moore clip knows that self-control and circumspectness is less than optimal. Her bio says she ‘teaches with energy and passion.’ She even calls herself obnoxious. I call it undignified. Awww, cow patties, you might say. That is part of who she is! She’s from Texas! Well, let’s look at women leaders from Texas and see if they are fast-talking, jumping bean, let-it-all-hang-out leaders: Laura Bush? Lady Bird Johnson? Kay Bailey Hutchinson? Hillary Clinton? (Beth Moore was raised in Arkansas). Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor? Can’t picture them being fast-talking, jumping bean, ‘energetic and passionate’ in front of a crowd in order to get an important point across? There is a reason. It’s distracting to the point you’re making. The problem with energetic and passionate delivery is that is puts the speaker at center stage when it should be the Word. I mentioned Beth Moore’s rapid-fire delivery. This next issue is a bit more problematic. She talks fast. And I mean F-A-S-T. She spits out verses, explains its interpretation like lightning, and then launches into a personal story that supposedly confirms the verse and interpretation. The Word deserves better. It takes a moment to find the address of the verse, it takes a while to absorb the truth being presented. Spitting it out fast and furious, flinging it all around the stage like fast food is not respectful to the Word and its meanings. It also makes it harder to detect error. What I want is gravitas. Beth Moore talks of Bible truths so fast and at such a high pitch, that as Chris Rosebrough of Pirate Christian Radio said, ‘she makes my ears bleed.’ Now a staunch supporter could dismiss the verses on being sober, grave, and self-controlled and put the rest down to my individual preferences. I don’t think so, but in any case, in part three I’ll take a look at some of the more troubling things about Beth Moore’s teaching: its content, her penchant for eisegesis versus exegesis, (those terms are defined here) and aberrant interpretations. Entries in the series- Troubled by Beth Moore’s teaching: Part 1, Introduction and Casualness Beth Moore plays up the southern belle, delicate flower, Texas big hair, ultra-feminine mystique…something that I as a Yankee find mystifying. It’s a cultural thing, I know. But just because it is a women’s ministry doesn’t mean all women will understand the southern belle, delicate flower, Texas big hair persona or even understand what she’s talking about half the time. However, if the Bible is center stage, it will transcend cultural differences, wouldn’t it? Let’s see. Troubled by Beth Moore Teaching, Part 2: Un-dignified teaching In which I look at one of the things that happens when women teach (tag-end questions and affirmation seeking), the undignified delivery of her lessons, and the problems with a rapid-fire teaching. Troubled by Beth Moore’s Teaching, Part 3: Contemplative Prayer In which I explain what Contemplative Prayer is, why it is bad, and Beth Moore’s participation in it. Troubled by Beth Moore Teaching, Part 4: Legalism In which I define legalism, and show three examples of Moore’s tendency toward it. Troubled by Beth Moore’s Teaching, Part 5: Personal Revelation Beth Moore claims direct revelation from God. Is this biblical? Troubled by Beth Moore’s Teaching, Part 6: Eisegesis, Pop Psychology, & Bad Bible Interpretations Does she interpret the Bible that badly? Troubled By Beth Moore’s Teaching, Part 7: Conclusion It is not about Beth Moore-it is about our own proper discernment. Recommendations for discernment studies and also good women teachers

beth moore, bible jesus, discernment

Troubled by Beth Moore’s teaching: Part 1, Introduction and Casualness

Posted on July 20, 2011May 20, 2024 by elizabethprata

By Elizbeth Prata

I mentioned I was headed to a Beth Moore convention this weekend, part of the Living Proof Ministries tour. I should say right off the bat that I don’t favor gender-segregated ministries. I am not a fan in particular of woman’s ministries. I think they rely too much on emotion and not nearly enough on theology.

I should also say I’m from the North, but I live in Georgia. I’ve never gone through a Beth Moore study. Last year was actually the first time I’d heard of her. When a church friend mentioned her and I innocently asked “Who’s she?” I’ll never forget the response. She looked at me like I had two heads and gushed “BETH MOORE! You’ve GOT to go through one of her studies!!!!!!!!!” And so on. Lots of exclamation marks.

I was immediately skeptical. Because I have a discernment ministry, and knowing it is the end time and we’re to expect false doctrines, I’m always skeptical of wildly popular Christian personalities. Being wildly popular these days is almost a sign that falsity exists. People do not stand for sound doctrine, period. “The time will come when they [the people in the church] will not endure [tolerate] sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths” (2 Timothy 4:3-4). If there is a wildly popular, lucrative book, DVD, and speaking tour, sellout crowds, AND it is based on strict truth and nothing but the truth, show it to me and then knock me over with a feather.

Last, Beth Moore plays up the southern belle, delicate flower, Texas big hair, ultra-feminine mystique…something that I as a Yankee find mystifying. It’s a cultural thing, I know. But just because it is a women’s ministry doesn’t mean all women will understand the southern belle, delicate flower, Texas big hair persona or even understand what she’s talking about half the time. However, if the Bible is center stage, it will transcend cultural differences, wouldn’t it? Let’s see.

So those are my beginning positions. But none of them are important, because the only thing that is important, ultimately, is Beth Moore’s stance on the word. Does she, or does she not, teach truth? That is what I am looking into. This will be a multi-part series. Apparently, there is a lot to say…

First, let’s look at discernment. Discernment is a good characteristic, something we need: “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12) Having no discernment is bad: “Folly is joy to him who is destitute of discernment, but a man of understanding walks uprightly.” (Proverbs 15:21)

Discernment is called for especially in these end times of deception: “For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough” (2 Corinthians 11:4; and 2 Timothy 4:3 quoted above).

Discernment defined by John MacArthur is “ability to understand, interpret, and apply Truth skillfully.” Tim Challies defines discernment as “the skill of understanding and applying God’s Word with the purpose of separating truth from error and right from wrong.”

Hebrews 5:14 teaches that: “solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” Discernment is a skill that has to be exercised.

One last caveat: I’ve watched Beth Moore clips and studies. I’ve read up on her. I’ve prayed. I’ve consulted the scriptures. I have some early concerns about her approach to theology, her method of teaching and her doctrines. I’m still looking forward to the weekend, because I want to investigate these things in person. But I do have grave concerns already. I did not want to go on the trip to the convention but the Spirit prompted me to, and even made provisions for me to go. I have a feeling that a discernment ministry is the reason. If you have rebuttals to what I share here, you must do in like kind, have watched her, prayed, and most important, consulted the scriptures and share the verses that inform your opinion. ‘I love Beth Moore and you’re a silly-head” kind of comments won’t make it through moderation.

OK, to start with my concerns about Beth Moore:

The first one I came across was disappointment when I went to the Living Proof webpage to see what she would be speaking about in Charlotte. I like to prepare ahead. I read the verses, I read the context, I pray, I get a sense of the intent of the verses. I need that grounding and I like to have it. I was surprised at what I found:

“Beth’s focus will be on the Scripture that God lays on her heart for each individual Living Proof Live event — no two are the same.”

So, no verses. Aside from my personal disappointment at not having an opportunity to learn the verses, the context, and to pray for her and the women I’m attending with based on those verses, I have a qualm about this kind of approach to Bible teaching. It is too casual for me. It sounds nice, it sounds like it is being personalized, but it is not. She sold out at the Columbia Colonial Life Arena (18,600) last year and apparently the one I’m attending at Charlotte’s Time Warner Cable Arena holds about the same number and is also nearly sold out.

Simply waiting for the Spirit to ‘lay it on her heart’ and being good to go seems disrespectful and also dangerous. In the first instance, it is disrespectful to God to be unprepared. Secondly it is disrespectful to the audience. I want to know that she has spent time treating the Word rightly, preparing and double checking. Would you like it if your pastor told you Sunday morning that he waited for the verse to be laid on his heart and then he bounded up the pulpit steps and launched in? No, I wouldn’t either, and he is a seminary trained man whose systematic theology is his foundation. Beth Moore has none such. The risk of treating the word casually is too great to approach it this way.

2 Timothy 2:15 says, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Barnes notes explains the verse:
“Study to show thyself approved unto God – Give diligence 2 Peter 2:10, or make an effort so to discharge the duties of the ministerial office as to meet the divine approbation. The object of the ministry is not to please men. Such doctrines should be preached, and such plans formed, and such a manner of life pursued, as God will approve. To do this demands study or care – for there are many temptations to the opposite course; there are many things the tendency of which is to lead a minister to seek popular favor rather than the divine approval. If any man please God, it will be as the result of deliberate intention and a careful life.”

Now, to be fair, there is a period of ten days to two weeks or so between each event, and perhaps she does study between each one as the Lord lays it on her heart. But the seeming lack of forethought doesn’t inspire confidence that that is what is happening. As a matter of fact, it inspires the opposite. If she rightly divides the word at some point the scripture explanation will be consistent, because the Holy Spirit is consistent. Last, I am not worried that “any two will be the same.” I’m not an excitement junkie. I don’t worry about repeats. Even if the scriptures used at one event are the same scriptures used another a year later, I will be a different Christian because I will have grown. I’ll absorb it differently. And what if the Spirit DOES lay the same scripture on her heart, gasp! two events in a row? Would she chuck it, fearing ‘it might be the same?” Maybe she is the excitement junkie.

Next blog entry, we’ll look at her manner of delivery. I’m going through the more superficial (but just as important) things before getting into her treatment of the Word itself.
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Entries in the series-