Posted in pope. conclave, rick warren

Pope frenzy? No, antichrist frenzy

As the Vatican cardinals gather to vote on a second ballot today, seeking their
ope, I want to make a reminder to everyone. Theologians more eloquent than I have spoken out about the Roman Catholic Church’s stance against the Gospel.

In this age of ‘tolerance’ we usually do not see the kind of language that church fathers used even as recently as 50 years ago when describing someone who is opposed to the Gospel: an antichrist. The RCC pope was most often referred to as an antichrist, having the antichrist spirit which John described in his verse in 1 John 4:3). We hear of the coming one man who will be antichrist, but if we say “that man or this man is an antichrist” we are soundly pooh-poohed, being called intolerant or politically correct.

Last night I listened to a John MacArthur sermon about the church, and this morning I read two other essays which discuss the pope in terms of antichrist. I bring your attention to them.

First, how the Pope was spoken of in the past:

John Wycliffe
“When the western church was divided for about 40 years between two rival popes, one in Rome and the other in Avigon, France, each pope called the other pope antichrist – and John Wycliffe is reputed to have regarded them as both being right: “two halves of Antichrist, making up the perfect Man of Sin between them.” -Ibid

Martin Luther (Lutheran)
“We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist…personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist.” (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom. (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): “I despise and attack it, as impious, false… It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein… I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself.” –D’Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9.

Cotton Mather (Congregational Theologian,)
“The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them.” Taken from The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom’s book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.

John Wesley (Methodist)
Speaking of the Papacy he said, “He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers… He it is…that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped…claiming the highest power, and highest honour…claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Taken from Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms by John Wesley, pg. 110.

John Knox (Scotch Presbyterian)
Knox wrote to abolish “that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church” and that the pope should be recognized as “the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.” Taken from The Zurich Letters, pg. 199 by John Knox.

In his sermon, MacArthur spoke of the history of the reformation and began speaking of John Hus, John Knox, and went forward to Martin Luther. He did so because he wanted us to understand that when we casually say, “Christ is the Head of the Church” that was a blood-bought concept purchased by martyrs who opposed Rome’s claim to the same and who died horrible deaths exalting the glorious name of Jesus and denouncing the pope.

The Pope’s claim to earthly supremacy and headship of the church is satan’s longest running attack on the church on earth. Not the only one, but the most successful, longest, and most heinous. The seeker driven pastor is of spirit of antichrist because they look to carnal means to expand the church. The purpose driven pastor is spirit of antichrist because they replace the bible with man-made, corporate methods to expand the church. The prosperity preacher is spirit of antichrist because they replace values and qualities of God with earthly possessions such as money and carnally-driven consumerism. The Charismatic is spirit of antichrist because they replace the word of God with personal experience as authoritative.

The sermon is excellent and heartfelt. You can listen or you can wait for the transcript.

Turning back to the pope, there is so much focus on the process to select a new one, after Pope Benedict’s dramatic resignation, it behooves us to remember that the pope is an antichrist. Remember, this is a man who claims to be Christ on earth, infallible and the authority over all the church, replacing Jesus. There is no higher blasphemy. We should not become so inured to this blasphemy that we cave under pressure to NOT say pope is a slave to sin, a man of perdition, and an antichrist. Here is what the folks at The Cripplegate say:

A friendly reminder: the Pope is (probably) the antichrist
“…The identification of the Pope as the antichrist was so ingrained in the Reformation era (for obvious reasons) that Luther stated it repeatedly. For example: “This teaching [of the supremacy of the pope] shows forcefully that the Pope is the very Antichrist, who has exalted himself above, and opposed himself against Christ, because he will not permit Christians to be saved without his power, which, nevertheless, is nothing, and is neither ordained nor commanded by God” (Smalcald Articles, II).”

And again Luther said,

““We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist…personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist” (sermon on Aug 18, 1520).”

A little known fact about Jonathan Edwards is that he actually wrote a church history book. Titled A History of the Work of Redemption (it is in Vol. 4 of the complete set of his works), he actually identifies the rise of the Papacy, which he places from 479-800, as “the rise of the antichrist.” Edwards describes the time period between 800 and the reformation as “the reign of the antichrist” and structures most of his outline around the theme of the gospel’s advance in relationship to the antichrist.

This was not a doctrine held only by Calvinists and Lutherans. Wesley wrote a book titled Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, and he too saw the antichrist of Revelation and of 2 Thessalonians as the Pope.

I give this long list simply to put forward a response to those that ask me if I care about who the next Pope will be. In short, I do not. And if calling the Pope the antichrist seems like a very unchristian thing to do, I assure you that it is not the theology of the thing that has changed in the last 50 years. Today’s reluctance to make that connection says a lot about how far our evangelical culture has drifted, and very little about the Pope.

The false doctrine spewing from the Vatican is so corrupt that it hardly bears thinking of how these men are allowed to go on taking another breath. God’s grace is surely evident in the fact that the ground does not open immediately and swallow them whole.

With that in mind, I bring you to another sad fact. Rick Warren, the man who is one of the pastors advising the makers of the History Channel mini-series, “The Bible,” has called for prayer and fasting for the cardinals as they “seek God’s will” in selecting a new antichrist pope.

As Erin Benziger wrote last night,

Such realities [of the pope’s antichrist spirit] make it difficult for the Christian to deny that the office of Pope is one that should be denounced and condemned by true believers, not one to be celebrated. How, then, ought the Christian respond to the following tweet posted early this morning by purpose-driven pastor Rick Warren of Saddleback Church?

Do you finally see? Do you see how so many of our “pastors” in our faith have gone off the path, if they were ever on it? How this end time of God’s work in the world is unveiling who is false and who is a wolf? God’s grace gives comfort but it also gives discomfort as we begin to see the masks come off and the wolves’ teeth bare in the gloaming, bloody with prey and looking for more.

The cardinals can no more find God’s will than rich old Lazarus begging for water in hell can find comfort. They would not know God’s will if they fell into a hole and came nose to nose with it. That Rick Warren, such a popular and influential pastor, should urge us to pray they select a new antichrist and that this process is within God’s will is so far out of bounds my heart is racing with amazement.

Do not be caught in a web of deceit that the pope is anything but an antichrist and for all likelihood, will become THE antichrist.

Benzigner finishes, “What a blessing it is to know that the true Body of Christ is never without its leader! Jesus Christ is the only Head that the true Church ever has had or ever will have. No mere man could surpass Him in power, greatness or glory and woe to the man who tries.”

Posted in ahmadinejad, interfaith, rick warren

What do Rick Warren and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have in common?

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is currently the President of Iran. His tenure is coming to an end, but for these past seven and a half years, he has been the loudest voice of Shia Islam.

Shia Islam is the second largest denomination of Islam. Of Shi’ites, there are about 20 million or 10% of total Muslim population. About 80% of the Shia population lives in only 4 countries: India, Pakistan, Iran and Iraq. The largest denomination is Sunni, of which there are about 1.2 billion or 90% of Muslims.

The Shia (and Sunni) Muslims believe that Jesus, AKA Isa, was a prophet of Allah, born of a virgin, lived a wonderful life, was NOT killed on the cross but lifted bodily straight up to God. They believe that Jesus will return with the 12th Imam or Final Mahdi to perform one last task: to break the cross, to kill the people of the cross, and to renounce his own Christianity and causing all to worship the true God: Allah. Then Isa will get to marry, have children, and die a natural death under the ‘peaceful regime’ of Allah. If this sounds suspiciously like Christianity’s False Prophet, you are correct.

Hugo Chavez was a socialist and friend to Iran, who died this week. Of Chavez’s passing, Ahmadinejad was praising him in a eulogistic pronouncement. However, it seems that Ahmadinejad went too far in his praise of his dead friend Chavez, saying that Chávez would “return on resurrection day” with Jesus and the Final Imam, the Twelfth Mahdi, who is the most revered figure in Islam.

Ahmadinejad is receiving criticism for this statement because Imam and Jesus/Isa are revered figures and are prominent players in Muslim end time scenarios. They take it seriously, because that is the time period which is supposed to usher in the final peace, with Islam being dominant over all the world. Jesus/Isa has a major part to play in that ushering-in. To speak words that include Chavez in the scenario is a religious no-no, illegal, even.

I wrote on the blog in September 2012, that Ahmadinejad said at the UN in his annual speech, “that the return of Jesus Christ was soon to come, along with the Islamic end-time figure the 12th Imam. “God Almighty has promised us a man of kindness, a man who loves people and loves absolute justice, a man who is a perfect human being and is named Imam Al-Mahdi, a man who will come in the company of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) and the righteous,” Ahmadinejad said, according to a transcript by PolicyMic. According to Shi’a Muslim beliefs, which the Iranian president subscribes to, Jesus of Nazareth will return to Earth along with the above-mentioned Imam, and they together will solve many of the world’s problems.”

One of those world problems is the presence of Jews and Christians, which ‘Isa’ will kill at Imam’s command.

Now to Rick Warren.

At the 2008 Obama inauguration, Rick Warren was asked to give the invocation. He prayed the following to end his prayer–

“I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Isa, Jesús, Jesus…”

Warren prayed in the name of Isa.

He prayed in the name of a false god which a billion and a half Muslims believe will return to kill Christians, break the cross and renounce his Christianity. Warren may as well have said “I pray in the name of Baal”.

I don’t want to hear any excuse that Warren was just using a pronunciation. Warren’s next door neighbor is a Muslim, with whom he traveled to Syria to learn more about Islam and his neighbor’s world. He breaks bread with Muslims at their local Mosque on Friday, he has spent money and effort to ‘build bridges to Muslims’, and he has studied Islam for a long time. Warren knows Isa is not Jesus.

The bible says we are not to be yoked with unbelievers when doing the work of Jesus. We are to be separate.

“Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: ‘I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.’ Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord” (2 Corinthians 6:14-17).

What good can come from darkness? Hitching with organizations or religions which deny Jesus of the Gospels goes against Revelation 2:14-15. Why unite with apostates? You see the damage it does? You wind up calling Jesus Isa and praying to the “All merciful One” of Islam.

In an interfaith paper to Muslims, seeking exactly the opposite of what the bible calls for, ‘reconciliation between two great faith communities’, Rick Warren was a signatory. The letter ended like this:

“Before we “shake your hand” in responding to your letter, we ask forgiveness of the All-Merciful One and of the Muslim community around the world.”

Again, Warren invoked a different God. By the way, Rick Warren is one of the paid consultants to oversee the scriptural integrity of the doctrines presented in the History Channel’s “The Bible” miniseries.

When Ahmadinejad says ‘Jesus is coming’, THAT Jesus bears no relation to God in the flesh who died for the sins of the world. Ahmadinejad’s Jesus, or Isa, is satan. Rick Warren’s Jesus/Isa is satan.

So what do Rick Warren and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have in common? They both pray to a false god. To be even more clear, they both pray to satan.

Posted in beth moore, bill hybels, gnosticism, gnostics, neo-gnosticism, prophecy, rick warren

Gnosticism Part 4: Ceremonies & Rituals

If you read Colossians, you quickly become aware that Paul was busy refuting some false teachings that had begun to affect the church at Colossae. Epahras had sent Paul a letter about this, and Colossians was Paul’s response. Though Paul never mentioned “Gnosticism” by name, it becomes obvious that’s what he was referring to, because of his use of certain words and phrases.

Gnosticism is less a religion than a loose patchwork of philosophies and doctrines from other religions and disciplines, blended into an amorphous set of beliefs that taint the true faith as delivered by Jesus. There never was a church of Gnostics, or a firm set of Gnostic tenets, just beliefs certain people promoted as a subtle blend of Christianity and good-sounding religious practices from elsewhere, mostly the Eastern mystical religions. But in general, we can list six elements contained in most Gnostic teachings, courtesy of the Zondervan NIV bible, which in turn is based on Paul’s mention of them in Colossians.

1. secret knowledge, (refuted in Col 1:27; 2:3)
2. asceticism, (Col 2:18)
3. depreciation of Christ (lowering Him in name and in glory), (Col 2:18b)
4. strict rule-keeping, ceremonies, or rituals ( Col 2:23)
5. worship of angels, ( Col 2:18)
6. and reliance on human wisdom and traditions (Col 2:20b-22)

When we come through the door of justification, and before we exit life through the door of glorification, we engage in a life-long process of sanctification. This is the work of the Holy Spirit upon us to make us more Christlike and to consecrate us for holy work on earth. “There are many false paradigms of sanctification, and there always have been. The problem is, there is only one method of sanctification and that is through the Spirit. The false paradigms of sanctification cannot restrain the flesh. Though some paradigms or strategies of sanctification purport to restrain the flesh and make one holy, they don’t do that, any more than a false Gospel could save. … [Gnostic/Mysticism] “is the notion that there is within a person a mystical, intuitive capability that causes, if manipulated correctly, a person to rise in spiritual formation”, said John MacArthur, in his new blog series addressing mysticism/gnosticism and spiritual formation, in his part 2 called “Spiritual Formation and Biblical Sanctification.”

BibleGateway summarizes Gnosticism, “The heresy taking root in Colossae was a form of gnosticism, which taught (among other things) that humans could transcend evil and the corruptions of the world through asceticism and their own strength of will. …”

The early church was much plagued by Gnostics throughout the first through third centuries. Colossians and 1 John are the most pointed refutations of this false doctrine, but several other New Testament books dealt with it too, including 1 Timothy 6, Titus, and other books as well.

Gnosticism is a self-centered, and not a Jesus centered doctrine, meaning, they attempt to attain sanctification themselves. They also believe in a progressive sanctification. It was through completion of rituals and participation in ceremonies that Gnostics believed progressed one’s sanctification ever upward. Mormonism, Scientology, and many of the ‘secret societies’ like Odd Fellows, Red Men and Freemasonry have steps for the devotee to attain. Sometimes these steps are called “degrees”, as in Freemasonry. In Scientology they are called “levels”.

Gnostics brought a teaching, but their rituals varied widely, that is, until Aleister Crowley wrote one. Crowley was a British mystic and occultist who, when in Egypt in 1904, “received” a text known as The Book of the Law from what he believed was a divine source. From this basis Crowley built a theology of Gnosticism called Thelema. In 1913, he wrote a Gnostic Mass. The mass contained Crowley’s scripted rituals. Crowley was also a pansexual and a recreational drug user, which may explain his crazy eyes.

Left, Aleister Crowley in ceremonial garb. Wiki source

Crowley explained why he undertook to codify Gnostic teachings into spiritual practices expressed through a ‘mass’. He said in his Confessions, “Human nature demands (in the case of most people) the satisfaction of the religious instinct, and, to very many, this may best be done by ceremonial means. I wished therefore to construct a ritual through which people might enter into ecstasy as they have always done under the influence of appropriate ritual.”

But Paul said, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.” (Colossians 2:16).

As for ecstasies, “Some charismatic Christians practice ecstatic states (called e.g. “being slain in the Spirit”) and interpret these as given by the Holy Spirit.” 

Since Gnostics deny the sufficiency of Christ’s work on the cross in His flesh, and they deny the Spirit’s work in sanctification, they need these rituals to make themselves thing they are accomplishing their own sanctification. All false religions, including Gnostics, focus on what the individual can do to attain heaven, or a higher consciousness, or transcendence, or any other phrase they claim will be the result of performing a certain ritual. In other words, I can do it, no God needed, thanks.

In Colossians 2:20, Paul exhorted, “If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—”

The above verse is explained, “‘Your union with Christ in his death has caused you to die to the rudiments of the world’, meaning, your union with Christ in his death has caused you to be separated from human religion, and human reli­gion is based in legalism and mysticism and self denial and all those works kind of things. But he says the redeemed are set free from self-styled, man made rules designed to make you holy.” (source)

For a pagan, including Gnostics, “salvation is not brought from above to below by divine visitations, but rather occurs through the Gnostic’s contemplative ascent through ever higher levels of the divine realm.”

“One version of a Gnostic ritual or ceremony was marking the various stages of a visionary ascent with certain baptisms, sealings, washings in various “waters.” Another ritual was utilizing a self-performable technique of successive stages of mental detachment from the world of multiplicity, and a corresponding assimilation of the self to the evermore refined levels of being.” You’ll find this is in Roman Catholic asceticism and Buddhism.”

“Other rituals and ceremonies included sexual sacramentalism, verbal performances through ritual speech, which can include glossalalia, traditional verbal formulae, spells, oaths, conjuration, invocations, evocations, voces mysticae, and prayers of various sorts addressed to transcendent powers, good and evil alike, and/or symbolic actions such as a ritual handshake. (source, University Nebraska-Lincoln)

You will note the incipient Gnosticism inherent in the Pentecostal ‘language of tongues’ (glossolalia) and levels of spiritual maturity through having had a “baptism of the Spirit.”

As you read the examples above, perhaps the modern re-emergence of these old Gnostic practices will have already been brought to your mind. The current evangelical craze for contemplative prayer, Lectio Divina, meditation, “Christian yoga“, expressive praise dance & mime performance, labyrinth walking, and becoming detached from the world to await a small voice in which conversations are held with the ‘Divine,’ are now apparent to you in the Gnostic teachings of Beth Moore, Ann Voskamp, Sarah Young, Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, Mark Driscoll, and many others.

The devilish influence of these practices are collectively known as “spiritual formation” and I mentioned them in part 2 four days ago. Since then, John MacArthur has also begun a blog series on spiritual formation and he is defining these false practices, blog by blog, so that the believer can be aware of their evil influence.

In 1932 the Polish cracked the Germans’ war codes. Just weeks before WWII broke out in 1939, they gave the information to the Allies. We called it “The Enigma Machine“. “The intelligence gleaned from this source, codenamed “Ultra” by the British, was a substantial aid to the Allied war effort. The exact influence of Ultra on the course of the war is debated; an oft-repeated assessment is that decryption of German ciphers hastened the end of the European war by two years. Winston Churchill told the United Kingdom’s King George VI after World War II: “It was thanks to Ultra that we won the war.”

You know, Solomon said that there is nothing new under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 1:9). Every false religion can be traced back to the Garden of Eden. Satan’s first words in the bible are recorded as ones which question the sufficiency and accuracy of the information God delivered to humans. He went on to imply that God was holding out on Adam and Eve, (God is a liar) that if Eve performed an action (eat the fruit) she would know as much as God, and that we can be like God. Gnosticism can be traced to those very words. There is no new false doctrine. They are all recycled bits from old satanic lies.

We do not need an enigma machine! We do not need to decipher our enemy’s plans! Why? Because we are not unaware of his schemes! (2 Cor 2:11). God has generously given us His word, inside of which is everything profitable for us (2 Timothy 3:16) to live and work out our salvation in fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12). He laid out for us that satan is a liar and the father of lies. Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the bible is replete with examples of the lies of satan, warnings that he seeks someone to devour, (Luke 22:31; 1 Peter 5:8). He shows us what kind of lies he perpetrates (Genesis 3:1-5, Colossians 1-2; and many other NT books).

If we read the bible diligently we will be solidly infused with His word. Saturate yourself in Truth! When you come across falsity, for example if your church wants to institute contemplative prayer, build a labyrinth,  send you to a yoga workshop, or start a praise dance ministry…you will be able to detect it.

“When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.” (John 16:13). “He shall not speak of himself means He shall teach nothing contrary to what I have taught you:” we read in Clarke’s Commentary.

Just to reinforce for a moment that there is no new doctrine under the sun, here is the culminating prayer from the 1913 Liber XV Mass that Crowley wrote, which adheres to a position that Gnostics of earlier centuries believed, right down to Paul’s time:

“Lord most secret, bless this spiritual food unto our bodies, bestowing upon us health and wealth and strength and joy and peace, and that fulfilment of will and of love under will that is perpetual happiness.”

It is the Prosperity Gospel!

I am against Expressive, Choreographed Dance in Worship. I do not believe it to be an acceptable form of worship in a service. With that in mind, here is Stephen Colbert in “Just Say No to Liturgical Dance”. He provided his own liturgical dance version of the hymn “King of Glory” on the show Strangers with Candy. I think this shows the ridiculousness of praise dancing. I do not doubt the sincerity of many who perform this kind of dance in church, and I applaud them for wanting to serve Him, but I think it detracts from the fact that we must always keep Jesus as the focus, especially in these Gnostic days.

Gnosticism series:
Introduction
Part 1: Secret Knowledge
Part 2: Asceticism
Part 3: Depreciation of Jesus
Part 4: Ceremonies & Rituals
Part 5: Worship of Angels

Part 6: Human Traditions 
Conclusion 

Posted in jesus, lloyd-jones, rick warren

Seeker driven churches know how to draw a crowd…but is it church?

You decide which man has the better approach:

Martyn Lloyd-Jones, 30 years’ minister of Westminster Chapel in London, fervent opposer of liberal Christianity, sound expositor of biblical doctrine with fire and passion in his delivery:

“When the church is absolutely different from the world, she invariably attracts it. It is then that the world is made to listen to her message.”

Or, Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Church: Founder of Saddleback Church, currently the eighth-largest church in the US, father of the manual of how to redesign both churches and services in an effort to bring more “seekers” through their doors, using worldly allurements to attract the multitudes:

“Figure out what mood you want your service to project, and then create it. (p. 264); We start positive and end positive. (p. 271); We use humor in our services … it is not a sin to help people feel good. (p. 272); Cultivate an informal, relaxed, and friendly atmosphere. (p. 272); We made a strategic decision to stop singing hymns in our seeker services. (p. 285); We have attracted thousands more because of our music. (p. 285); Saddleback now has a complete pop/rock orchestra. (p. 290); Use more performed music than congregational singing … (p. 291) (emphasis on entertainment); The ground we have in common with unbelievers is not the Bible, but our common needs, hurts, and interests as human beings. You cannot start with a text … (p. 295); Make your members feel special … they need to feel special. (p. 320,323)”

And this:

“The goal of The Purpose Driven Life is to help people develop a heart for the world.”

As poet Robert Frost wrote so famously, “two roads diverged in a yellow wood” … In this case, the road that Lloyd-Jones was on, the one that walks closely with Jesus, is measured and sober, one that is straight and leads to wisdom and understanding of His word.

Lloyd-Jones & Westminster Chapel

The other road leads to…well…none of the above. This is what happens “when a pastor chooses to entertain goats rather than feed Christ’s sheep.” (quote source). It leads to this:


HT Closet Calvinist via DoNotBeSurprised

John MacArthur said of the seeker driven movement of Rick Warren and his ilk, “They have figured out how to get a crowd and call it church. There’s a big difference between a crowd and a church…big difference.”

You decide which of the above is church…and which is a crowd. Then decide where you want to be when Jesus returns, with the crowd? Or with the church?