Posted in theology

Discerning Joyce Meyer: reply to commenter

Elizabeth Prata

When I make dogmatic comments on various social media about this or that person being a false teacher, invariably I receive push-back. It usually consists of one of two opinions- either they use ad hominem to accuse me of being critical, judgmental, or otherwise something negative. Or, they say they had a positive experience following the teacher and due to the experience they had, it proves the teacher is true. A sort of ‘I know s/he isn’t false, because s/he helped me!’

Either type of comment displaying zeal without wisdom also usually include some old chestnuts recycled from undiscerning person to undiscerning person. They include, Judge not, don’t touch God’s anointed, did you go to her … and so on.

I say zeal without wisdom and undiscerning, because these commenters know just enough of what is in the Bible but not at all what it means.

Continue reading “Discerning Joyce Meyer: reply to commenter”
Posted in theology

Bullet points on why Joyce Meyer is a false teacher

By Elizabeth Prata

Joyce Meyer is a very popular female Bible teacher and preacher. She has been on the scene for decades, and shows no signs of slowing down. She has 10 offices around the world and employs 500 people. Her brand of charismatic/name-it claim it religion has deceived many. This is sad, but the Bible says that many will be deceived by false teachers. I pray that anything here will spark a further Berean investigation by the reader and through prayer, come to the other side of discernment in understanding why Meyer should be avoided.

  1. Joyce Meyer preached that Jesus was a sinner, had been born again, stopped being the Son of God, paid for our sins in hell (from 1991 Booklet called The Most Important Decision you Will Ever Make), and was tormented there. Meyer preaches a different Jesus. She is a heretic.
  2. Joyce Meyer preaches to men and mixed gender audiences in violation of 1 Timothy 2:12.
  3. Joyce Meyer operated as an associate pastor in a church in violation of 1 Timothy 2:12.
  4. Joyce Meyer preaches that it is normal and expected to hear directly from God, when contrary to her claim, the scriptures claim they are sufficient (2 Timothy 3:14-17), and the Word is closed. (Revelation 22:18-19). Yet she teaches that God speaks individually to people today. Example, in essay “It’s not that complicated” she wrote -“Do you ever wonder if God speaks to people? You’ll be happy to know the answer is yes. But first let me explain how distractions can hinder His voice” and taught more from her book How to Hear from God or in this video.
  5. Joyce Meyer claims she is not a sinner. This is in violation of 1 John 1:8, which says that such people are deceived and the truth is not in them.
  6. There’s more, but these should suffice to illustrate to the reader that Joyce Meyer’s teaching is not edifying.

Please do not allow a teacher’s longevity lull you into thinking they must be good. Please do not allow a ministry’s global breadth to lull you into thinking he or she is good. In fact the Bible says that popularity is often a mark of falsity. (Luke 6:26). The world wants their ears tickled. In 2 Timothy 4:3 we read

For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires,

If you follow Joyce Meyer, please consider these things. Please stay in the pure, undefiled faith, and find some good Bible teachers to follow, beginning with your own pastor and elders at your own church.

Posted in discernment, false teachers, joel osteen

What Joyce Meyer believes & teaches, what Joel Osteen believes & teaches

On Twitter, A Call for Discernment ‏( @call4discern) posted a few pictorial cheat sheets on what several of the false teachers believes and teaches. I asked permission to post two of them here, What Joyce Meyer believes and teacher,s and what Joel Osteen believes and teaches.

A Call for Discernment’s bio blurb states that it “calls for Believers to stand and contend for the Faith. Our ministry is to expose the wolves that have infiltrated the flock.”

Click to enlarge

A Call 4 Discernment posted; “The teachings of Joel Osteen compared to Scripture. #falseteachers pic.twitter.com/Cp7AHlSzL9”. Click to enlarge

Note: the falseteachers.org website at the bottom of Joyce Meyers photo is a redirect to a church in Orlando FL.

Posted in beth moore, discernment, doctrine, false teacher, Joyce Meyer, unity

Discerning Beth Moore and Joyce Meyer’s discussion on "Enjoying Everyday Life" about "unity"

On August 18, 2014 I published an essay regarding the joining of Beth Moore and Joyce Meyer on Meyer’s television program, “Enjoying Everyday Life”. Moore and Meyer, along with friend Christine Caine, had tweeted excitedly about Moore’s interview on Meyer’s program and upcoming broadcast of that interview. The topic was “unity.”

Most discerning Christians know and understand that Meyer is a false teacher. She does not preach the same Jesus as revealed in the bible. Some discerning folks know and understand that Moore is also false, but many more were until lately reluctant to declare her so, instead of being just wayward, misguided, or temporarily mistaken.

Wheat or tare? Emmer wheat, Persian, darnel?
A skilled eye can tell. Public domain

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.” (Matthew 7:15-18)

It takes time for fruit to ripen. And so Moore’s has ripened to the point where we can now detect whether her fruit is bad or good. For the record, it’s bad.

When Moore joined Meyer on Enjoying Everyday Life, it was another nail in the coffin, so to speak.

The actual program aired yesterday, October 31. It is currently available here.

I watched it, and here is a review of the program.

Meyer opened the show by saying “Today we’re going to talk about unity and peace and getting along, what could be accomplished if we could all get along and work together? How can we avoid allowing our differences to hinder us in bringing the gospel to a lost and hurting world?”

Meyer included Moore’s bio in her opening introduction, saying in part, “She ministers to women of all faith backgrounds. She has a heart for unity in the body of Christ and a vision to reach women of all denominations.”

This sounds very good, and is actually fairly biblical – unless you know that Moore includes Catholics as a regular Christian denomination. This fact is not stated in the video.

Joyce Meyer gave a personal anecdote to start, beginning the discussion of unity as unity within the home. Meyer said she has learned to “Keep the strife out of your life. I’ve discovered Jesus works in an atmosphere of peace, not turmoil and anger. What have you discovered [Beth Moore] along these lines in your walk with God?”

For those who may be anticipating an essay full of biblical debunkings of plainly heretical or false statements either or both ladies made during the interview, you will be disappointed. They made no outward heretical or false statements, except the one above and perhaps one other.

Rather, they alluded to things, they skirted issues, they were cloaked and guarded, they were non-specific; so that if one was unaware of the previous contexts in which they taught, or previous situations in which they had been called to account, nothing untoward seemed to be said. This is even more dangerous than plainly speaking heresy, because satan is subtle. (Genesis 3:1)

This will be a discernment lesson on how to be discerning not with what a false teacher says, but on what a false teacher does NOT say. False teachers have to be right some of the time. Even a broken watch is right twice ever 24 hours.

As for the ridiculous opener from Meyer stating that Jesus worked in an atmosphere of peace, it can be plainly seen from scripture that Meyer is totally wrong.

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. (Matthew 10:34-3).

Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. (Luke 12:51)

The “atmosphere” in which Jesus worked was filled with anguish, strife, perplexity, anger, and death. The Pharisees tried to kill Jesus a number of times. They even tried to kill Lazarus. (John 12:10). Even though Jesus healed the terrible demoniac the Gadarenes were all so afraid of, they asked Jesus  to leave town! Meyer’s assertion is biblically unfounded and patently ridiculous.

The first part of the discussion the two women had was about their own coming to terms with how to biblically nurture peace and unity within the home, as wives. Moore said that she harangued her husband (who had come from “a different background spiritually” and “accepted Christ” when he and Beth were dating) to go to church, and it was when she prayed and left it to Jesus that her husband started coming around. She said that she stopped trying to control him and quit trying to change him and began respecting the man God had sent to her life. Meyer said the same, that when she concentrated on being a godly wife instead of trying to change her husband, peace reigned in the home. These are good thoughts and actions for women to take. I agreed with them.

The second part of the interview was when the two women began to discuss unity in the body of Christ. However, they never defined the body of Christ. We know from following Moore that Moore considers Catholics part of the body of Christ. A person who came in cold to the broadcast or was otherwise unaware of this belief of Moore’s would never know this.

After the break Meyer asked, “How can we have more unity in the Body of Christ? Or even unity within one church?”

A good question. There is nothing wrong with and everything right with unity among the brothers. 1 Corinthians 1:10 makes an appeal for unity among the brothers. Psalm 133:1 promises blessings for those who dwell in unity.

Moore replied: “Even the topic of unity causes division! Disunity is not the heart of Christ, it is the will of God to be unified.”

Sometimes the topic of unity does indeed cause division, lol. However neither woman biblically defined unity. Meyer said that though she married a Lutheran and was involved in the Lutheran church for years, and Moore is a Baptist, and they might not agree on “every little point of doctrine” they would still consider themselves loving sisters in the faith.

There was only vague talk of denominations, but no declaration of the biblical standard under which someone would be considered in the body of Christ.

Here is where they strayed from the center line of biblical truth, though. Meyer said even though she might disagree with Moore over doctrine,

“I agree with your heart and your spirit and with your teaching in the Body of Christ. People disagree over little things.”

Doctrine isn’t a little thing.

Moore replied, “The witness of our disunity is deplorable. Throw down those denominational lines. It is insulting to Christ to be separate. … We love the same Jesus. We love the same scriptures. … Even if we did not have that in common, if we could say our salvation is found in Christ if He died and rose again and how to be saved and Jesus sits at right hand of God, then that is my sister, my brother.” “I would serve anywhere and anybody even if they didn’t have close to the same belief system.”

And here is the danger. Mormons claim Jesus is the source of salvation and that He died and rose again and is sitting at the right hand of the Father. So do Jehovah’s Witnesses. So do Catholics. Their discussion alluded to the fact that we must be united at the expense of doctrine. They intimated that we must have harmony with anyone who simply claims Jesus. Even if they “don’t have close to the same belief system.”

So one wonders, how far afield does one go in order to unite, and where does one draw the line? Does one even draw a line? One could not tell from their discussion. The bible is clear, there MUST be divisions. There must not be an unequal yoking in service. Neither woman made that distinction which of course is totally unhelpful. The statement of Moore’s that she would serve alongside anyone even if they don’t have close to the same belief system is unbiblical. 2 Corinthians 6:14 says,

Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

There are supposed to be divisions along doctrinal lines. It is what makes us Christians. The women taught during their discussion that the only doctrinal line is whether someone mumbles the magic password: ‘Jesus’ and that’s it. The Pope invokes Jesus. Muslims invoke Jesus. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, even Presbyterian USA denomination invoke Jesus. But it is not the same Jesus.

There are many who “claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.” (Titus 1:16)

Good fruit? Bad fruit? Worm in fruit? Inspect before ingesting!

Over the years, both Meyer and Moore have made unbiblical statements, and they have been soundly criticized for it. Neither woman likes that. For a while the pair discussed rebukes they’ve received and they condemned these rebukes as disunity within the body. Using cloaked and non-specific language, Meyer said,

“How can we possibly say we love one another if all we do is find fault and differences and be judgmental and critical and say things about people when we have no knowledge of what they’re talking about? I know of you, I know your reputation, but I don’t know YOU yet, in order for that to happen time has to be spent together. It’s unfair for people to have an opinion when they haven’t spent time. People have so many opinions they don’t know anything about me or even you and they know nothing about. They don’t know me at all. They’ve never asked me a question. They think something that is uninformed and they pass it along from person to person. God doesn’t agree with me about everything but we have a good relationship.”

The context for her comment was that people see her on TV or read her books or see something she said and are critical of it and she believes this unfair. Why is this unfair, according to Meyer? Meyer used the verse from 1 Thessalonians 5:12 Amplified Bible, which says,

Now also we beseech you, brethren, get to know those who labor among you [recognize them for what they are, acknowledge and appreciate and respect them all]—your leaders who are over you in the Lord and those who warn and kindly reprove and exhort you.

Her point was that unless one has “gotten to know” her, they cannot and should not reprove her. Of course, the standard translations do not translate it “get to know.” They all say, honor, or respect, or acknowledge or appreciate or know or recognize. The commentaries explain:

Matthew Henry: The people should honour and love their ministers, because their business is the welfare of mens’ souls. And the people should be at peace among themselves, doing all they can to guard against any differences. But love of peace must not make us wink at sin.

Meyer’s statement is even more ridiculous considering that she is NOT submitted to a pastor and does NOT attend a church where a pastor could get to know her and rebuke her if differences in doctrine arose. The only church she ever attended was a Lutheran church for a few short years, then shortly switched to a non-denominational church where she taught a bible class, and then became associate pastor. We know from the bible that women pastors are unbiblical. When her class grew large, she quit the church and founded her own ministry, first on radio then took it to TV. Her statement about getting to know someone and spending time before criticizing was hypocritical in the extreme. Why? She has insulated herself from being able to be gotten to personally, and therefore has added a barrier over which no one would ever be able to reach in order to even begin to criticize. A neat trick. (Source below)

We command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you stay apart from every brother who leads an unruly life, not according to the tradition which you received from us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:6) If you have someone in your church who is teaching error, you cannot have unity with that individual. If you have someone who is leading an unruly or sinful life, you cannot have fellowship with that individual. So what we’re talking about here is the pursuit of the true unity of the Spirit, that belongs to those who surround the truth, and affirm it, and who live godly lives. ~John MacArthur

Moore agreed with Meyer. She said, “I get weary at things taken out of context, that people have quoted me about…even when WE choose to love one another and unite together people in those camps will be disunified. This is the time on the kingdom calendar to come together.”

Matthew 18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:12 have no application to a public leader and his or her public writings. Whatsoever. 

Both women are public teachers, and their teaching must be examined. Both teach unbiblical things, and both have been reproved, rebuked, judged, and criticised. This is biblical. However, in their pursuit of unity, they include themselves under the overly-large doctrinal and denominational umbrella, and claim that to even criticize at all is ‘unfair’ and promotes ‘disunity.’

Moore and Meyer discussing the ‘unfairness’ of being criticized

If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain” (1 Tim. 6:3-5).

Their discussion was pointed about including any and all ‘denominations’ (and we know they mean Catholics) into the fold, disregard doctrinal differences, and claim that love will triumph over all.

Here is what John MacArthur said about the kind of false unity Meyer and Moore promoted:

There is a drive today in evangelicalism – and what a bland term that has become. But there is a drive in evangelicalism for an ecumenism that ignores sound doctrine, that overlooks error, and accepts even what we would deem as heresy. There is a kind of evangelical ecumenism that says we’re all one, and we need to enjoy one another without regard for any of our doctrinal differences. That is a false, and unbiblical, and displeasing unity, if indeed it is unity at all, in the sense that it dishonors and displeases the Lord. There is another kind of striving for unity that wants to disregard iniquity, and embrace everybody no matter whether they are walking in obedience to the Word of God or not, overlooking their sin and their iniquity.

But quite the contrary – the Scripture says if there is someone in your midst, according to Titus chapter 3, teaching error, if there is a heretic there, admonish him once, admonish him twice, and then put him out. He’s forfeited a right to lay any claim to acceptance within that unity.

The discernment lesson comes where we understand that in their televised discussion, Meyer and Moore taught unity through love, but not in doctrine. They failed to mention that there are many scriptures, and the above is just one, where the one preaching a different doctrine is to be put out…not tolerated…called to repent…confronted…handed over to satan. They failed to mark their discussion by presenting scripture on both sides of the scale. The failed to define unity, did not define the Body of Christ, and did not warn listeners about the dangers of overlooking sin and false doctrine. Discernment is about what false teachers say and what false teachers don’t say. That is the true both sides of the scale.

For example, both women talked about Luke 10, where Jesus sent 72 disciples out two by two. They said that if the disciples came to a town and were received, that was good. But it was so peaceful if they were not received because all they had to do is shake the dust off their feet. How peaceful and non-confrontational … but they did not read to the end of the passage, where Jesus said, “I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.”

Not so peaceful after all, when Jesus said that those who reject Him and His doctrine will be judged more severely than the town that was burned to the ground in fire and brimstone.

Matthew 11:20-23 expounds more:
Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.

Jesus was warning those towns that failure to accept His doctrine and truths by repenting of sin and believing on Him would result in hell and permanent cursing of their town. Jesus was drawing the lines of division: who would be cursed and who would be blessed and which behavior results in both. The townspeople had accepted the miracles but rejected Jesus. Standing with one foot on both sides is not unity. Jesus was all about one or the other. Yet Moore and Meyer taught that love while overlooking doctrinal differences is all one needs to be unified. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In conclusion, Moore and Meyer taught that unity above doctrine was paramount, blindly accepting anyone who says “Jesus” is our duty, serving alongside anyone even if they have a wildly divergent belief system is OK, pursuing peace and love across all denominational lines without regard to the nuts and bolts of a person’s adherence to the bible is a given, and that to criticize one’s doctrine without spending time to get to know them is unfair.

All of the above was cloaked in loving language and even some tears at times. It seemed Christian-y, it was kind of bible-ish. But it wasn’t. It was what they did not say that was the problem.

How can a person know what someone is not saying? Know what the bible says. And listen for the whole story from your teachers.

At the end of the discussion, Moore laid the syrup on Meyer. Moore said,

“I’m astounded at the magnitude of what you’ve done, through God. I asked God how to bless you, Joyce, in my hotel room this morning. I offer you my respect. I offer you my esteem. I say to you, you are a mighty woman of God, you have run a race well.”

This should nail it for those who still may be unsure of Moore’s proclivities. Meyer is an obvious, rank heretic. For Moore to publicly lay on her esteem, respect, and proclaim Meyer a woman of God shows a massive lack of discernment or else a massively pragmatic conscience in unbelief. (2 Peter 2:3).

As an aside, we know that the last few years Moore has been reaching out to Catholics. I got curious as to what the Catholics think of Moore. There are many women Catholic forums and there is often a question from one Catholic woman to another as to the value of Moore’s studies or as a Catholic, whether one should partake of Moore’s studies. The verdict from most forums I scanned? Catholic women see Moore as biblically shallow, overly sentimental, given to emotionalism with not much bible. Their general consensus was that Moore is a motivational speaker but in no way a bible teacher. That is pretty discerning for women who aren’t even saved. Here is what one Catholic woman wrote:

Let me stress, her underlying message seems okay, but her delivery bothers me. She could write some great self-help books from a Christian perspective but her Bible study method is lacking. What bothers me: She comes up with a theory and then searches for scripture to back-up her theory. Seems backwards, but whatever. At the end of lesson 5 she asks everyone to stand up and repeat a pledge/prayer. If I’m going to make a pledge before the Lord I’d like to know what I’m pledging.

Interesting. Would that all women who are genuinely saved be so diligent about who they should follow into studies and so discerning about Beth Moore.

Another lady said Moore taught that,

“The Bible is Complete and Fully Sufficient.” Ironically, she can’t make this point without referencing 8 sources outside scripture.”

One Catholic woman on a forum inquisitive about Moore and whether her study would be profitable for her, a Catholic, said “I looked her up on Google, and found that she is a Southern Baptist speaker. The Statement of Faith of her organization was quite encouraging, as she does not include a “Bible is the Sole Source of Authority” point.”

And that says it all. If a teacher’s statement of faith page encourages people outside the faith, the teacher is doing something wrong. What is NOT there in a person’s teaching is just as important as what is.

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To gain discernment, just ask!

Teach me good discernment and knowledge, For I believe in Your commandments. (Psalms 119:66)

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From a news article about Joyce Meyer from 2003:

It was while at Life Christian that Meyer began one of the more unusual chapters of her early ministry.

In an audiotape series called “How to Fight the Devil and Win,” Meyer recalled how she read a book on freeing people from demons. She saw the book as a revelation from God and began what she called a “deliverance ministry,” much of it out of the family’s home on Codorniz Lane in Fenton.

“I had every person, I think, anywhere within 10 miles who had a demon come knocking at my door wanting deliverance,” she said. “And I was staying up half the night, almost every night, Dave and I were, casting out devils.”

She said she got on people’s backs and rode them “all over the house, with these demons of anger and fear and violence … you know our kids are back there sleeping and we’re in the living room screaming at demons half the night. …

In November 1998, Meyer made the big time with a cover story in Charisma & Christian Life magazine, one of the nation’s leading publications for followers of the charismatic movement. On its cover, the magazine called Meyer “America’s most popular woman minister.”

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For Further Reading:

At what point does one declare a teacher like Beth Moore false? Here’s some help.

John Stackhouse: Why I Criticize in Public

Posted in beth moore, discernment, false teachers, heretic

Beth Moore and Joyce Meyer: Bad company (UPDATED)

Updates here and at bottom.

At what point does one declare a teacher like Beth Moore false? Here’s some help. 

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Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm. (Proverbs 13:20)

Joyce Meyer tweeted this tweet and photo today:

In the photo are Beth Moore, left, and on the right is Joyce Meyer.

For her part, Beth Moore tweeted this:

Joyce Meyer is a heretic. There is no doubt about this. She preached that we are little gods, that Jesus stopped being the Son of God, that Jesus paid for our sins in hell, that she herself is not a sinner, and more. Though Meyer is a gifted speaker, and uses the scriptures correctly sometimes, she teaches too many doctrines that are contrary to the truth to be called a woman of faith.

Beth Moore is a heretic. Readers of this blog and those who have read other blogs concerning problems with Beth Moore will know that many have been writing that Beth Moore has gone wayward. Moore says she speaks to and hears from God audibly, in full sentences, that He gives her revelation that is not in the bible, and that He tells her to teach these new concepts. Moore says she has visions sent by God. She says she had a supernatural experience writing her book “When Godly People Do Ungodly Things” which was actually occult channeling, or ‘automatic writing.’  She promotes and practices the Catholic mystical activity of contemplative prayer, does not handle the word rightly, and infuses all her teachings and studies with pop psychology and personal experience, which she tacitly AND and not so tacitly demonstrates by her teaching as equal to scripture.

To see a pairing above should not be surprising, because that is the natural trajectory of the natural man. Evildoers gather together. Last year Moore partnered with non-believer Roma Downey at a new bible study/convention. Last year Moore also praised and recommended the book Jesus Calling by Sarah Young, another book written by a woman claiming to have heard directly from God.

It is ironic that Meyer and Moore met at Meyer’s broadcast studio to talk about “unity.” They are already united – in satan. For all are either under satan, or under Jesus. There is no in-between. There is no gray area. Either one is in the truth or he hates the truth.

I do not sit with men of falsehood, nor do I consort with hypocrites. I hate the assembly of evildoers, and I will not sit with the wicked. (Psalm 26:4-5)

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away. Psalm 1:1-4

Do I not hate those who hate you, LORD, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you? (Psalm 139:21)

From Christine Caine’s Facebook page Aug. 13: That time you sat and watched
Beth Moore & Joyce Meyer talk about unity
& you could not stop the tears streaming down your face…

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Further links on this topic:
At what point does one declare a teacher like Beth Moore false? Here’s some help.  

World View Weekend, Topic: Joyce Meyer and Beth Moore, Brannon explains why he is now willing to call Beth Moore a false teacher after several years of giving her the benefit of the doubt. Guest, Justin Peters. Topic: Our phone lines fill up with listeners that want to respond to the actions and statements of Beth Moore. [Ed Note: sometimes certain of the WVW clips and programs go behind a paywall after a week. If you plan to listen, listen soon.]

Do Not Be Surprised: Beth Moore talks ‘Unity’ with Word Faith Teacher Joyce Meyer

Posted in "Any Minute" review

"Any Minute": a review of Joyce Meyer’s book

Any Minute is an inspirational novel written by Joyce Meyer and Deborah Bedford, published June 2009. It cannot be called a Christian novel. The premise is that the protagonist, Sarah Harper, is a barracuda on the Chicago Commodities Exchange floor and a whiz in forecasting futures for her financial firm. She drives a Lincoln, multi-tasks, pulls the long hours, and expects the little people to get out of her way.

Sarah’s husband, Joe, and her 8-year-old son Mitchell and baby Kate are increasingly making do without their mother at home, and when she is, she is cell phoning, computering, and texting, sometimes all at once. Sarah is important.

As the story unfolds, Joe is increasingly unhappy and actually, so is Sarah, but neither know what to do about the widening gulf between them, except retreat further into their respective positions after several clumsy attempts to find a middle ground. Mitchell is so unhappy that he sees an angel behind the scoreboard at Wrigley Field and spots him again as a homeless man on the street as his mother drags him along to the office for a day of “fun” and “bonding”. Cue the harps.

At the office, Sarah spies on her nanny through one of the gazillion placards pasted on every baby item they own, and Joe drops a wrench at his garage. He outfits Miatas for racing. Creepily, this nanny webcam is also open to any other person on the web and they may also not only spy on the child but post reports about what they see. Pedophiles are popping popcorn as I write.

After one particularly heated fight in which the “D” word was almost uttered and a sleepless night for all ensued, the next morning Sarah races off to work angry and driving like a maniac. Driving like maniac is what she always does, and as the story told us (not showed us, an amateur mistake in writer’s craft) she is called Mario Andretti at the office because of her penchant for ramming any vehicle that attempts to obtain her coveted parking space next to the elevator. You would think a senior analyst for a major brokerage firm would have an assigned space, but there you go. I am obviously numerically illiterate as well as corporately naive. But today Sarah is particularly maniacal, intent on proving her worth to all by analyzing numbers like no one ever has before, even if it means getting to the office first and jumping that river bridge that ominously has bells ringing on it and is on its way up. Thinking she can make it, Sarah drives past the lowering guard rails and accelerates, only noticing belatedly that she is driving uphill, which usually means in stories like these, that the bridge is being raised.

Aw, man, she almost made it!

But alas, gravity won the day and Sarah and her Lincoln plunged into the river and without so much as a glub glub, she and her status symbol sink like a stone.

The next scenes show Joe grief stricken and guilty that he hurled all those three or four angry words at her when he put up his hand and said “Excuse me. Your husband needs your attention.” Vicious man, he is. Now he will never have a chance to make it up. Meanwhile, Sarah’s last conscious thought as the cold and murky waters closed over her was “I’m in trouble.” Yes, you drove off a bridge. Trouble is the least of your troubles. Sarah awoke under a homemade quilt in her dead grandmother’s house in a place that glowed honey gold. Or maybe it was apple jelly gold. Or maybe it was sunshine gold. Anyway, it was gold. Also, it was peaceful. Sarah basked in the peacefulness where it felt like nothing was ever wrong. So immediately dispensing with eternal bliss, Sarah grabbed her cell phone so she could call her boss and tell him to tell the client that she would be late for the Eggs Benedict breakfast meeting. The cell phone said “Searching for signal.” I am not making this up. The angel of the Cubs Scorebard comes in and gently chides Sarah for thinking she could afford the roaming charges from this location. Just kidding. He came in and says “You really think that phone’s going to do you good in this place?”

Her grandmother and the Cubs Angel take Sarah on a tour of her life, her mother’s life, and her future life. As Sarah is shown her daughter Kate all grown up in college, studying hard and resisting the dastardly temptation to go bowling, Kate sighs and tells her roommate that she really wished she had a mom to talk to at times like this. Sarah, viewing the scene from above moans and wishes she hadn’t died. Here comes the emotional gut twister. Get ready. Here it is. It was a moment from the future with Sarah alive. Incredibly, Sarah would have continued to alienate her daughter and her relationship with her would have been in ruins even if she had not died. Man, I hadn’t seen that coming.

Back at the office, her co-workers flip a coin for her parking spot, and her boss gives her job to his son. Sarah, crestfallen, learns that life in the cutthroat commodities trading fast lane is, well, cutthroat. And that people don’t matter. Only money matters. The only person who says anything nice about her is her intern. He still wants a job at the firm.

She is given a chance to live again, and she undergoes a remarkable transformation after waking up in the hospital. She buys a cappuccino for the lady in front of her in line. She says hello to a homeless person. She only spies on her nanny three times in a day instead of 300. She says thank you to her intern. And, cue the music, Sarah decides to be real and genuine with everyone, especially her husband.

Review: you might have been able to tell that I am no fan of this book. I consider it subversive in doctrine and accommodating to feminism. As far as doctrine goes, the bible is clear, no person is allowed to talk to the dead. (Deut. 18:9-11) Having Sarah’s grandmother as a character that interacts with the living is an egregious doctrinal error and one that I found hard to get over.

As far as subtle doctrinal issues go, there was no mention of the sins of anger, greed, selfishness. There was no emphasis on the roles of each gender in the family, nor the importance of time spent with them instead of money being made for them. This is not surprising, Meyer’s last annual take was 95 million and she owns 5 homes and a $100,000 Mercedes-Benz. There was no mention of repentance. There was no mention of what kind of person Sarah had become and her new clarity that that was not God’s intent for women, mothers, or daughters. The most we got was a promise from Sarah to “be genuine” and a hurry up and get back to work-ethic.

Most important, one would expect that Sarah’s lifestyle of consumerism-accumulation on the back of betting on commodities prices was not the best as a mother. Rather than decide to raise her children herself, she simply decided to treat the nanny better. A request from her boss to stay at the office after 5pm was met with a threat to leave and start her own business, which anyone who has their own business knows, means more hours than she was even working at the outset of the book. Her boss looked at her with respect after making the threat, rather than pity her that she is missing yet another Cubs game with her son.

In one place in the book, Sarah’s grandmother tells her that “God wants you to be happy with yourself.” This notion is typical of the prosperity Gospel crowd where “it’s all about you.” God did not come to earth to make you feel better. He came to save you from your sins which any mention of was conspicuously absent from the book. Most people in the bible who were shown the unutterable glory of heaven fell on their face crying out to God their unworthiness, not reaching for their cell phone muttering they “probably didn’t belong here.” There was no sense of honoring God, no awe, no worship. No gratitude. Worse,  the only appearance of God was this stomach-crunchingly embarrassing conversation God had with the assigned angel:

“Mitchell Harper needs you,” said the Creator of the Universe. “Are you willing to help the boy?”
Yes,” Wingtip said. “You know how I feel about that kid. I’ll do anything.”
“Are you sure?”
“Yes, Lord.”
“Even if you have to leave your post at a crucial moment in the game?”

WHAT?! Yes, it would be a tragedy of incredible proportions of the Cubs’ Angel failed to be on hand for the score. Sigh. How demeaning of angels and of God.

At one point early on, Sarah mused that their chosen lifestyle was untenable and as a matter of fact, the more money they made it cost them more to keep it up. Car for status, and gas to propel it during the commute. Clothes befitting her station for meeting with clients. Nanny, babysitter. Large house, private school. I was expecting a transformation to include simplifying and streamlining these things with something that is seen all too little of these days: sacrifice. But there was not any sacrifice, not one iota. Except for her parking space.

Essentially, Sarah returned to her former life with a barely transformed personality. Certainly the event had not made a spiritual dent in herself or her relationship with Jesus. Compare that to the transformations of the woman at the well, Zaccheus, the Centurion, John the Baptist, Isaiah, John the Revelator or any other interaction in the bible between a sinner and either an angel or the Lord, and you see the sad circumstances Christian fiction has fallen to these days. The message of this book is ‘be genuine’. ‘Feel good about yourself’. And for heaven’s sake, let the Cubs win.

Posted in theology

This is the truth of how it works with false teachers

By Elizabeth Prata

For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, 2 Timothy 4:3.

The verse says that they, meaning professing Christians, will refuse sound doctrine. Instead, they will heap up teachers to suit their passions…so, Jesus raises up an Osteen for those who want to suit their easy life, no speaking of sin passions; a Beth Moore for those who want to indulge their usurping passions, a Kenneth Copeland or Joyce Meyer for those who want to indulge greedy passions, and so on.

Far from being innocent victims of false teachers, followers of false teachers are guilty in their intentional accumulation of them to suit their desires. False teachers would not exist if people subdued their ungodly lusts and submitted themselves to God. Instead, He raises up people like a Beth Moore so that those who do have ungodly passions will be drawn to her. He raises up a Benny Hinn so that those who want attention and fame through false healing will suit their ungodly desire and it will become evident where their heart is. And it’s not a heart that tolerates sound doctrine. A false teacher exists to scratch their wicked itch.

What does a false teacher get out of it? Indulgence in his or her own ungodly passions- money, fame, attention, whatever it is in their heart that needs to perpetuate this appearance of Godliness, though they deny its power. (2 Timothy 3:5).

It’s a symbiotic relationship made in hell, the worm and the serpent, intertwined, rolling around on the stubble, indulging their wickedness in the name of Jesus. Woe to them all.

Photo by Milo Weiler on Unsplash
Posted in theology

2021 Wrap-up- A Good year, an Interesting Year!

By Elizabeth Prata

It’s time for an annual wrap-up of the blog doings! I like the end-of-year wrap-ups. It’s good to take stock, review what I’ve done, and decide what my next year’s goals may be.

I think it’s especially important for people who have a ministry in Jesus’ name. I am always concerned that I write about things of Jesus that are accurate, well-interpreted, and edifying the reader or listener. I am concerned that I don’t drift, nor neglect my salvation. Publishing in the name of Jesus for all the world to see carries with it a heavy responsibility. If Jesus even considers me a teacher, then the burden to rightly divide the word is even more paramount. (James 3:1). As a Titus 2 older woman, I also feel a responsibility to minister correctly to the younger. I take these verses seriously:

3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. (Titus 2:3-5).

Dishonoring the word of God is the worst.

So how was 2021? Well, let’s begin at the beginning, 2009. I started the blog The End Time in January 2009 on Blogspot. Thirteen years!!! I named it The End Time, Because we are IN the end time, even though I knew I might be lumped in with the many crackpots and fringe theologians milling about in the prophetic waters. So many of them do newspaper eisegeses, that is, looking at the news headlines and back-matching verses to them and pronouncing the end is near. I was that way too, in the early years of salvation and the early blog. I know why, too. I was SO thrilled with finally having a framework and understanding why the world was the way it was. Why Israel is hated and there never seems to be a peace treaty that lasts. Why people are so awful. How the world got here, because it sure was obvious it didn’t appear from nothing and banged open for no reason of a sudden. My eyes had been opened and I was relieved and entranced.

But the Lord in His graciousness soon grew me out of that, and I went on to just plain theology and discernment. As for the discernment, I’ve noted concerns in the past with David Platt early on, Rachel Held Evans, Jen Hatmaker, the IF:Gathering bunch (especially Jennie Allen), Ravi Zacharias early on, Ann Voskamp, Joyce Meyer, Jen Wilkin. I’ve called out films from the Kendrick Brothers like Fireproof and The War Room, also The Shack – both the book and the movie…and more. I’ve reviewed books with discernment in mind, like The Circle Maker. I’ve warned about movements like Lectio Divina and Spiritual Formation and Romancing Jesus as a boyfriend, and so on.

My highest views for any given month are always related to a post about Beth Moore, and that has held true from 2011 when I first started writing about her, to this month. But I persist in discernment, speaking up when I see something off, or “almost right” as Spurgeon famously said.

“Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right.”—C.H. Spurgeon

One person – even one – who sees a false teacher for who she or he is, and repents, is worth it. It’s why discernment people do what we do. It’s why I do what I do.

An example: I received a comment in real life from a woman friend who said ‘the best thing I ever did for her was point her to John MacArthur.’ Not only she enjoys his content, but her son and the whole family does too.

Another comment on my Twitter thread about Beth Moore’s Anglicanism this month was from a gentleman who said his eyes have been opened, and he repented of steering his wife to Beth Moore material which he had done even recently.

If anything I print or say in the discernment realms steers someone TO a great ministry or AWAY from a false one, I am thrilled. It is a great credit to The Holy Spirit who opens eyes, raises up good ministries, and a gives illumination to minds. Who wouldn’t be thrilled to be even a tiny part of that?!

2021 has been interesting on the blog. Each year the views increase, and for that I am grateful. As my visibility increases, a few more people ask me to be a guest on their podcasts. I was interviewed on Confidently Called Homemakers, The Bud Zone, and Striving for Eternity, with an upcoming interview on A Word Fitly Spoken.

I started my own podcast, imaginatively called The End Time Blog podcast. It’s just me reading what I wrote that day. I did it so my friends who have recently had children can listen because they no longer have time to read. In 2021 my commitment to getting solid content out there remains steadfast. I thank the Holy Spirit for that.

I received an email from the producers at the Dr. Phil television program to appear on their show about The Great Resignation, because I’d written about The movement called The Great Resignation, Or, The Great Laziness. The premise as stated to me was that there would be a debate for and against people quitting their jobs, a movement that has swept America since the pandemic. I declined, but then they asked to use my essay and the blog name etc in the show and in print materials. I don’t know how that went because I don’t have a TV and the show is not streamed online for free. But I didn’t get any bumps in views on my blog that week over the normal, so they probably abandoned it and focused on the angry guy who quit with profanity over the intercom. TV, you know.

On the individual blog essay front, my essay Bullet points on why Joyce Meyer is a false teacher received a lot of views, which I am grateful for, as perhaps someone will come out of Meyer’s false teaching. I posted several creation essays extolling Jesus as Creator, an aspect of His work which I love to study.

I re-posted an old series I’d written called Back to Basics, just cutting through the culture and clutter to re-focus on the most important things, like the Holy Spirit, Prayer, being Born Again, and the like.

In February it came to our attention that Canadian officials were persecuting the church in the Great White North, and I along with many other bloggers and journalists focused on Pastor James Coates’ efforts to resist that tyranny. I posted some articles about that situation here, here, here.

In June, the talk was of Southern Baptist Convention presidential candidate Pastor Ed Litton’s plagiarism. I wrote about it here, here, and here.

In August, I posted a week of Discernment essays in a series I felt was needed. Essay #1 is here. Then I did a week on Heaven, needing to cleanse my theological palate after all the putridness of the plagiarism scandal and the Ravi Zacharias scandal. This is Heaven Week essay #1.

In October I was blessed to attend the national G3 Conference, which I adored. Here is an essay of photos and blurbs about that three-day trip to Atlanta.

The battle of women in church leadership heated up during the year. Of course, I pushed back against that, since the Bible says “no,” at least, leadership positions that put women in authority over men. Here, here.

November was not so busy. In fact, the third week of October I got a stomach flu then pneumonia. I spent two weeks battling a 102 fever and was out of work. I returned in November but staggered around trying to regain my strength. Then I got Flu A. I spent 4 more days at home. In December I got a sinus infection which I’m still battling. Oy.

I’d posted an essay in December reporting where Beth Moore landed, after her noisy March declaration announcing her departure from the Southern Baptist Convention. She’d been vaguely tweeting about a new “liturgical church” she and her religiously apathetic husband Keith had been attending. She gushed and gushed about it.

I researched where, found it, and I’d reported, “Beth Moore is Anglican Now“. it isn’t a secret, Moore was asked by Bishop Clark of the Anglican Diocese of the Western Gulf Coast, Woodlands, TX, to speak a devotional to his people, which she did on November 10, 2021, and at that time identified her church.

My post generated a lot of interest. But we are a visual people nowadays, and when someone posted a satirical tweet saying it wouldn’t be long before Beth Moore would look like Moira Rose in the ending to the TV show Schitt’s Creek, I knew it to be a truism. I also knew it would not be long before Beth was at the pulpit serving or speaking in some way. After all, it was mere weeks after becoming a member that she was asked to MC an event and also to teach a class to an audience that included ordained leaders, presumably men. And sure enough, it happened. I posted the look-alike photos and showed screen shots of her in church doing just that.

It caused a Twitter meltdown. It also caused Moore to be nationally trending. Several journalism outlets picked up the story and reported the news as a ‘social media uproar.‘ Glad to help.

The top search query for all the year that landed people on my blog is “Melissa Moore”. The top essay is still, since 2016, an essay about Melissa Moore’s unbiblical divorce. Top Ten search queries for the year are listed below. That the query ‘Beth Moore Anglican’ is in the list is amazing, because that issue only came up two weeks ago.

  • Melissa Moore
  • Ravi Zacharias Last Words
  • Types Of Glory
  • One World Religion 2022
  • One World Religion Center
  • Beth Moore Anglican
  • Beth Moore Salary
  • Beth Moore Net Worth
  • Jennie Allen Theology
  • Joyce Meyer False Teacher

A topic that caught the people’s attention is the reporting I did on the One World Religion center opening in 2022. A LOT. I mean, hundreds of thousands. I thought it was significant enough to report on, and it seems lots of other people thought it was significant enough to search for and read about. THIS is why I do what I do. I hate to think of hundreds of thousands of people searching for information on the One World Religion center and what it means, and landing on a crackpot’s page.

On the top ten there was one query about a theological issue, the different types of glory. That’s good. Sure, I wish people would search for more theological topics, but I have no angst about the discernment questions. John MacArthur has stated many times over his 50 years of ministry that “The greatest threat to the church is lack of discernment,” as he said again in his December newsletter. So if I can serve through my discernment gifting in a way that edifies, helps, or even provokes, I am content.

I enjoyed some good movies this year, including the Mully Movie, a true story. “MULLY the true story of Charles Mully, whose unlikely stratospheric rise to wealth and power leaves him questioning his own existence, searching for meaning in life. Against the better judgment of family and community, MULLY sets out to enrich the fate of orphaned children across Kenya. Jeopardizing his own life and the security of his family, Charles Mully risks everything and sets in motion a series of events that is nothing short of astonishing… as he created the World’s Largest Family.” Really good! Free on Youtube.

I wrote about my personal life in reviewing 2021 at my other blog, The Quiet Life My Year in Review.

My goals for next year on this blog are the same as they have always been. As long as the Spirit sustains me, I will continue to write about theological topics, including prophecy, discernment, and encouragement. We are 365 days closer to heaven than we were at this time last year. What a day that will be when we are finally home!

To all my readers, donors, pray-ers, Thank you! To my critics, trolls, harassers, Bless you all. I mean it. I love the Lord and that means I care for the souls of those who are angry, in anguish, or just plain ignorant. It means I love His people and long for the day when faith becomes sight. Meanwhile, I write.

Posted in theology

Deborah does not prove women can rule. Women cannot be pastors, period

By Elizabeth Prata

Alan Hunter the Polite Leader on Youtube takes 6 minutes to refute the oft-heard chestnut that since Deborah ruled (judged) then that means women today can preach. People who claim this are taking a big scriptural leap, but oftentimes we ladies don’t have an adequately scriptural rebuttal. Here, Alan does it for you.

God did not ordain women to preach in the church, nor to teach in authority over men.

A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer. But women will be preserved through childbirth—if they continue in faith, love, and sanctity, with moderation. (1 Timothy 2:11-15)

Further Resources

What does the Bible say about women pastors?

Women are not to preach, be ordained as pastor, or be considered for any ‘office’ where she is in authority over men: Al Mohler explains

In truth, the issue of women serving as pastors fueled the Conservative Resurgence in the SBC. The question was instantly clarifying. The divide over women serving in the pastorate served as a signal of the deeper divide over the authority and interpretation of the Bible. Simply put, the only way to affirm women serving in the pastoral role is to reject the authority and sufficiency of biblical texts such as 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2. There is more to the picture, but not less. Furthermore, the Christian church in virtually every tradition through nearly two millennia in almost every place on earth has understood these texts clearly. In most churches around the world, there is no question about these texts even now. Furthermore, there is the testimony of God-given differences in the roles of men and women in the church and in the home throughout the Bible. The pattern of revealed truth is not hard to follow.”

Voddie Baucham Provides Answers about Women Pastors, Teachers and Elders in the Church (Joyce Meyer)

Posted in theology

‘God Told Me’ – part 2: How can we confirm a voice we hear? And if it’s not God, then who’s speaking?

By Elizabeth Prata

Part 2 of an ongoing discernment series addressing the issue of women, many of them ‘Bible’ teachers, who are claiming to hear directly from God. Part 1 here. Questions addressed in the previous part were

1. What is the “God told me” religion?
2. Does God talk to us audibly?

Today’s questions are:

3. If we do hear a voice, how do we know it’s from the Lord?
4. And if it’s not from God, then who is speaking?

Part 3 here
Part 4 here
Part 5 conclusion

Continue reading “‘God Told Me’ – part 2: How can we confirm a voice we hear? And if it’s not God, then who’s speaking?”